Darren Bell

George Lippert

Yesterday I introduced a conversation between my friends George and Darren.  I know them from two completely different contexts, but from my recent facebook interactions with them, I noticed that they were very similar in some ways and very different in others.  So I thought I would ask them to answer some questions for me via email, then replay the action here at martyholman.com.  The following is part 2 of that discussion.  You can find part 1 here.

George Lippert (GL):  Intellectually and spiritually stimulating, Darren.

If I understand you correctly (and pardon me if I am boiling down a stew to make a pill), is it a fair summary to say that your perspective is basically that everyone’s truth is true for them but not necessarily true for anyone else? All religions are equal (different paths up the same mountain)? In essence, is it the case that all truths are relative to he/she who believes them, based on the proposition that, to them, those truths order their world, give them clarity, and therefore serve the basic purpose of a belief system?

Darren Bell (DB):  Partly. But mostly I think I’m trying to say something deeper.

To take the mountain analogy and the famous humanist scenario of many people walking up the mountain from different sides all moving towards an ascendancy, the top of the mountain. A friend once told me that that story has the major flaw of all bad philosophy, that it fails to take itself into account and be self-reflective. The story requires a view from the top of the mountain to propose.

When I was thinking about your summary earlier today my first response was “No! I’m claiming there is no mountain at all!” Then I realized that is also claiming a knowledge that I don’t have.

To keep the mountain metaphor going in my view people are walking around in a forest with ~20 yards of visibility. In walking around we meet other people and talk to them about what they have seen walking around. And sometimes you meet people that are walking around that claim that we are all on a mountain, and that some people are going the correct way in the forest and others are going the incorrect way.

I hate the word truth. The sentence “Everyone’s truth is true for them” to me is the whole problem, and it is what most people do. They have experiences, they put those experiences together and then they blanket the world with them and operate like they are true for everyone. I think it is a very subtle difference but it is to me, an important difference in attitude about how you view your ‘own truth’ or ‘own worldview’. And that you DON’T let your personal truth become Truth.

Because Truth is unknowable.

To talk even briefly about the God thing. To know for a fact that God existed using the faculties we have you would have to be able to witness his infinity. Literally, to say God is infinite you have to see his infinity, you have to see or experience his omnipotence everywhere and through all time. Maybe there is a very strong force that operates in my cubicle at work, as far as I know it is omnipotent. But when I go to my co-workers cubicle he is no longer powerful there.

Now I understand that at some point for knowledge to grow you have to extrapolate knowledge from your circle of experiences and make assumptions about the way the rest of the world works. The problem with most of spirituality though is that the experiences people have are GLARINGLY DIFFERENT!! In science when a scientist measures the mass of an electron every other scientist measures the same mass. However when people follow their ‘internal moral compass’ everyone scatters like cats each chasing their own cubicle god and claiming it is God. “Well he is god in my cubicle so he must be God everywhere.” That is bad extrapolation. And the myriad of human experience tells us that is bad extrapolation because there is no consistency of experience between one person and the next.

I don’t have Truth. I have experiences and perspective, and those things can never be wrong, only my interpretations of their meaning can be wrong. Because of that I try to be very careful with my interpretations of there meaning and confine that interpretation into what I believe claims that can be rationally asserted and are also going to be true for the next person that has the same experiences as me. You know . . . more or less.

GL:  Thanks for going into it again, Darren. Obviously I disagree on some major points, but I won’t spend anymore time in this post hashing over it (unless you and Marty wish it). We could go on for volumes, I am sure. I do agree with you vigorously on the futility of seeking Truth through subjective personal cogitations and speculations. I suspect we humans no more contain Truth than lightning bugs contain Lightning (to paraphrase the immortal Twain).

MH:  Actually, I wish it. Would love to hear your answers to his, and maybe another round or two.

GL:  Well, honestly, my answer is just a couple more questions. I really don’t mean for this to be belligerent, so I apologize in advance if this sounds obtuse.  The claim that Truth is unknowable is, in itself, a Truth claim. What is the basis for this Truth claim? Using your previous comments, I’m led to the next few questions.

I appreciate that you use analogies. You describe us as people wandering aimlessly in a foggy wood. We are unable to know the full Truth about this wood because none of us can see the whole of it. I’ll call this the Holistic Quotient.
On the other hand, you compare Truth about spiritual matters (vague and disparate) to the Truth about the mass of an electron (measurable and uniform). I’ll call this the Disparity Quotient, and I think it is a very fair question, one that I consider myself at length.

The Holistic Quotient is one you already addressed by acknowledging that, eventually, one has to make logical assumptions based on the available evidence. Thus, you do not need to measure every electron on earth to determine a logical assumption of its mass. And yet you say that since we cannot experience the absolute totality of God’s alleged omnipotence, said omnipotence cannot be assumed. Why?

The Disparity Quotient is admittedly trickier, methinks. Still, how does disparity of beliefs about spiritual matters deny that there might be one absolute Truth? Many people might disagree about the contents of a mysterious box (think of the classic thought experiment of Schrodinger’s Cat), but that does not imply that there is not one constant truth regarding what actually IS in the box.

To claim that disparity of beliefs means there is no such thing as Truth seems to me like saying that in a world of second graders there would be no such thing as algebra. Mathematical Truths exist even if the second graders have no concept of them (although they themselves may deny it vehemently).

So. All that to say, how do you back up your Truth claim that there is no way of knowing Truth? I believe I know Truth (albeit in a limited form, revealed by God’s revelation through the Bible, and through NO act of wisdom, wit, or worth on my part). Your worldview denies mine. Therefore, I would be curious to know what your basis is for it. Why, in short, am I wrong?

MH:  Feel free to comment your thoughts and opinions.

Today I shamelessly name drop and beg you to listen to the band that is about to be huge before they are huge.

The Undeserving is a group of guys from Fremont, Ohio, a place I have often wrote about on this blog, and they are about to go viral on us in the music world.  They have a new song “something to hope for” that is going to be used for the ABC show “Find my family” and a new album that will be released in 2010, produced by some of the big names in the music biz (oh yeah, cool people use words like “biz”).

This band has some really great tunes, and the lead singer really stands out to me to be a first class guy, though on Facebook we tend to debate who the best team in the NFL is, I really appreciate his songwriting and music expertise. (coincidentally I am losing this argument at the moment as the Steelers blow chunks all of a sudden)

So I’m requesting your support of this up and coming band, and pray they will be used to be a light in the world in which we live.

Because they deserve it.

Tour Recap Video

The Undeserving

I’ve written in the past about some of the interesting relational things about facebook. And now…another one.

I’m writing this on the day where I write about relationships with enemies, but that might or might not be extreme for the topic today.  You see, one thing that is fascinating about Facebook is the ability to be friends again with people you’ve been around in days gone by, in different eras of your life.  This is great in one sense, because I love seeing friends I haven’t seen in a while.  In another though, we must meet up with the realization that there is a reason we are no longer in that season of our life.

For instance, I grew up in the thriving metropolis of Fremont, Ohio.  A set of my friends live there or know me from there.  The theology was rigid and the music was bad.

At 17, I moved to Pensacola, Florida to attend college.  A big number of my friends attended there with me.  The theology was also rigid, but the music was good.  By good, I mean professional as opposed to a type that I liked.

When I moved to Florida, my parents moved to Arizona, so during the summers I lived there.  A small portion of my friends live or lived there.

After college, I moved to Atlanta, GA where I taught school and other odd jobs for the year of 1998.  It appears that I have a lot of facebook friends from this are of my life.

Then I moved to Massachusetts in the middle of 1998 and have been here ever since.  Meeting friends, seeing people move away.  Meeting new friends.

I bring all this up because I wonder whether it’s healthy to have an eye on all these people from all these various stages of life.  I’m really glad the technology exists, and I have become close again with friends from my past, and in some cases closer, but for the most part, it has been just a means of seeing that they ate chili this morning for breakfast or that their kid puked all over their back seat because of travel sickness.  But here’s the interesting predicament I’m processing.  I wonder if they (meaning my friends from a different era) like the ideal of the old Marty, who was sheltered and didn’t listen to rock music and didn’t say things like “crap” and “screwed”  and who towed the party lines when it came to eschatology and the church?

Then I wonder if I’m just creating a new crop of enemies for myself by having a facebook account?  I could just as easily write the names of the people who I’d really be in contact with, and get on with my life post facebook.  Wow!  That’s a lot to think about.

I’m just glad I didn’t grow up a Calvinist and jump out of those circles.  I would be so screwed.

This morning I asked this question via status message:  “If you could twitter or facebook status a piece of advice to me right now based on what you’re going through, what would it be?

Here were your answers:

Via Twitter:
“Grace is far more powerful than justice.  Live above the line.” @dbpayne
“Make a list and knock it down 1 by 1.” @k_seas
“Cling to God in desperation as if your very life depended upon it (in all actuality, it does). This is the essence of true faith.” @ianmatthewrice
“Keep looking forward.” @Brandonwhittall

Via Facebook
“Suffer well.” Ryan
“Buy cheap sunglasses, so when you break them, it doesn’t hurt as much.” Clay
“Pick a career you enjoy.” Tony
“Put all your cares and fears in God’s hands – for He is in control.” Denise
“Watch out for cheap cocaine.” Mike B.
“If part of the everyone is missing is missing, part of the needy goes missing as well. Acts 2:44-45″ Steve B.
“God is so good to provide what we need at the perfect timing – not mine – So very thankful.” Melaney
“Parenting is alot tougher than what it seemed at 18.” Michelle, Part 1
“More income and less hours worked for it.” John
“For every mountain, there is a miracle.” Tina
“Parenting is also tons more fun than I thought at 18.” Michelle, Part 2
“Patience is a virtue and understanding is a must.” Darlene

All right, your turn.  You have any wisdom to add to this list?

Here is where you connect with yours truly on all my social networking sites.  I’d love to hang out, subscribe, tokbox, video chat, email, or have you stalk me.  Okay, probably not the latter, but everything else!

Facebook
Twitter
Subscribe to this blog
Subscribe to the Connect with FC podcast
Church website where I pastor
Youtube
Tokbox
Vimeo

I am friends with 3 of these people on Facebook. I have occasional facebook conversations with one of them.  But in 1984, these people were a major part of my life.

At some point I had to make an adjustment.  I had to be able to meet new people, say hi even when I didn’t feel like it, and open myself up to people even when it wasn’t comfortable.  With the meeting of new people came opening myself up to new ideas.  New ideas were not looked on positively by the community I was a part of in 1984, but they were important for my growth.

I think we grow fastest and best as people when we separate ourselves from our present communities for a time, and then come back to it for a time, like hopping back and forth through the middle of a river on rocks,  each side bringing a new and fresh perspective of the entirety of the river.

I grew up in Fremont, Ohio and have lived in Tucson, AZ; Pensacola, Fl; Atlanta, Ga; and Massachusetts. Each community bringing its own fresh perspectives and the ability to help me see things more clearly (and sometimes less clearly) as I continue on in life.

Sometimes I’m thrilled to have lived in all of these places and known all of these people and gathered all these perspectives, and sometimes I just want to be the little boy again.

I had way more hair back then.

I’d like to share with you why joining a group on Facebook called “I want the old Facebook” is worthless and probably not really what you want.

When I joined Facebook about a year and a half ago, I loved learning the new social media world, and all the features that Facebook had.  It was great!  Then a few months into it, just as more people were connecting on Facebook and leaving My Space, they changed the entire format.  They moved this here and that there, and I was all confused, but over time I was able to learn the new format.  Many people who have joined Facebook in the last year don’t know the present “Old facebook” as the one time “New Facebook” about 9 months ago.

So this month Facebook unravels a new format, and let’s be honest, it’s very twitter like.  And now we have to do things like:

Get to know new formats.
Search around for the new way of doing things.
Learn new tricks to make communication easier for all of us.

But even though ultimately, the new facebook will make things easier (trust me, this is not up for debate), we fight it because we have to learn new ways to communicate and new ways of networking that we didn’t have to before.  And we’ll make groups called, “I freakin want the old Facebook back, because it was my best friend”, and a few people will join those groups, but ultimately those groups will fail and the new Facebook will remain, and probably be changed in about 9 months or sooner.

Facebook doesn’t make these changes because they hate you.  They make these changes because they believe that in the long run, the changes will make it easier for everyone to connect.  And that’s the point of Facebook.  If they didn’t change, they would become My Space someday, and everyone would be leaving by the masses to the new social media thing, all because they didn’t change for the better.

If you don’t believe me, please go to your nearest “almost dead” church.  I don’t mean to be offensive, but somewhere near you is an “almost dead” church that at one point was alive and thriving.  The people there will tell you abou the good old days when people were coming and lives were being changed.  Then something happened.  Times were changing, and decisions were being made.  Should we change or not?

And the people that don’t like change will say something like this:

I don’t know anyone anymore.  (Why don’t you meet someone now?)
I don’t understand this new way.  What was wrong with the way we used to do things?  (Ummm, nothing…30 years ago)
I’m gonna do things the way I’ve always done them. (then you’ll continue to get what you’ve most recently gotten, ha!)

And if the church is alive and well or “almost dead”, tells me whether the “old side” or the “new side” won out.

Please understand, I’m not just talking about music and coolness here.  I’m simply talking about relevance.  If someone  stands on stage and drones on and on about whatever, without connecting with the people he’s talking to, and the people are just there because it’s church, and the “right thing to do is be in church”, it’s over.

And if a church has a service on Sunday because “that’s the way we’ve always done it and the way it should be done” without having a valid point for that service, it’s over.

Sometimes new is really hard to do, but who said hard to do was wrong?  If you like Facebook, it gives you a chance to learn it better.  If you like the church, and they do something new, you’ll get a chance to meet new people and pour into their lives.

Go New Facebook!  I’m cheering for you to win!

For those of you who think, “Wow, some of these people get on facebook a lot. They change their status’ every 3 minutes.” We do it through Twitter.com, not facebook. And we can do it through our phones. I know, I know, genius. You should try twitter starting right now. Follow me at twitter.com/martyjon

Here are some ideas I’ve had over the last few weeks.  Feel free to use any of them you wish:

Online service only
We are going to do this for Good Friday at Fellowship on April 10th, 2009.  This will be a part of a 5 week series we’ll be doing, but will not be on a Sunday, only online at this site.  I’m looking forward to joining our church family in one of two services on Good Friday at noon or 5:00 pm.

What I’ve done
This Linkin Park tune was a killer a few weeks ago to close up a service where we focused on the story of sin.

Picture video of my life
Ever since I was introduced to Animoto on Brad Ruggles blog, I’ve ideated about making a music video of my life from birth through the multi generations I’ve lived until now.  The only decision I would have to make with the aforementioned site would be the theme song for my life soundtrack.  Ideas?

Work on a project with Clay
As one of my closest friends since junior high, I feel very strongly that this founder of conservatismlives.com is a genius.  But I have yet to work with him on some project since we have both blossomed into adulthood.    But one day…

One Prayer pastor/band switcharoo
Last year our church participated in One Prayer, a movement of churches who came together to show the unity we have in Christ.  For 4 weeks we were treated to the wonderful video teaching of some of the best preachers in the country.  So I had this idea to take it to another level.  Would another pastor and church be open to trading places with the pastor of this church (that’s me) and  the bands would trade places too?  Just an idea.

A Marty Party
I would love to have all my closest friends from the entirety of my life and from the many places I’ve lived to come to a party where I can connect them all and convey how much I appreciate them, and I would love this party to take place well before I’m 80 and not to coincide with my funeral.

Surprise Lunch
Using the wonderful technology of Facebook, I would like to announce to all my friends an inpromptu lunch at a specific place in the area I live.  It might be interesting to see who would show up.  Could I end up having lunch with 5 people I haven’t seen in a few years?

Heck No!  We won’t go!
A bit of reverse psychology – I think I’d like to form a picket line around a non profit organization that is doing amazing things here in my area.  Then I’d write negative sarcastic jokes down on my posters about that 501c3 organization, and act like I’m really angry that they exist, then I’ll watch as they gain more support after I picket them than they have had for the last 5 years.

I Scream Sunday!
There’s really no interesting idea here, but thank you to One Bad Pig, the 80′s Christian metal band from Austin, TX for singing these words with all the heart they could muster.

Don’t go postal on me
I think it would be neat to prepare a box lunch of some sort for my postal carrier sometime, especially since she’s pretty ticked off that our box door always sticks.

No email or social networking day
No doubt you’ve received the “please fast from your computer” pleas from friends and family alike, but that’s not what I’m talking about.  I’m thinking that with all the emails I send out and internet communication I do, it might be nice to take any general day and say “Today I’m not going to communicate at all via the internet, but if I need to communicate with someone I would have emailed, I will push myself to make a phone call or go visit that person.”

So that’s the rough draft of my recent idea list.  the next step is…

Communication breakdown!

With the outbreak of technology we’ve had in the last 10-15 years or so, communication has never been so easy, and so confusing, as it is right now.  I remember watching my dad minister in the 80′s and early 90′s in Ohio, and he had two options:  meet with the person or make or receive a landline call.  This was probably a lot better for focus unless he was at home and his children were busy running around the house yelling at one another.  Now we have a landline phone (anybody know what this is?), a cell phone, Instant messaging, texting, Facebook wall, Facebook  messages, Facebook chat (and Facebook pirate or vampire invitation), Skype, and video messaging coming at us very fast.

So here are some questions that have been stirring in my head.  I’ve answered them myself, and feel free to share your answers with me as well:

*When it comes to your close friends, how much (and how) do you communicate with them?

I have a whole pile of close friends, both here and away, and my answer looks like this.  My friends here I talk to on the phone about once a week, and my friends abroad I talk to about once a month.  I also tend to text a good bit to friends both here and away.  I don’t use email a lot (since the development of Facebook) because if I’m going to go into detail, I’d rather do it by voice either by phone or in person.

*As far as emailing invitations to events, how much is too much?

I wish I knew the answer to this.  Any help here?

*How much do you enjoy communicating live with people vs. communicating electronically?

Personally I love technology, but I love to hang with people more.  Playing games, shooting the breeze, talking life, love, and other mysteries is where I’m at, though I certainly understand why a lot of people enjoy communicating electronically.  It’s a lot easier to be authentic, and you can shut it down when you want it to stop.
This post might help you think about where you’re at communication-wise.

*Has the onslaught of technology helped our communication to become more authentic?

Yes.

*Has the onslaught of technology helped our communication build more community?

No.  It’s helped spark some community, but I wouldn’t say more community.

*If you could have one tool of communication, and only one, which one would it be?

Definitely a cell phone for me.  I think a laptop would be too easy to hide behind.  Plus people would find out that I’m not the All-state QB I said I was from my online persona.  Though sometimes I do like the idea of church online.

*As far as communication, what do you have to practice more of in your life?

Definitely I’d like to have more community between Carie, myself, and other friends in regular intervals throughout the week.  I don’t just want to sit back in the evenings anymore and feel bad for myself because I live in a cold tundra.

Your turn.  How do you communicate?