George Lippert

Darren Bell

George and Darren are having a conversation about faith and worldview.  George is an artist/writer who is a christian, and Darren is an engineer who is an “agnostic.”  The last several days they’ve been having a conversation on martyholman.com based on this question:

MH:  In a world full of opinions and thoughts and gray, as opposed to previous eras of black and white, it can be tough to really know where someone’s coming from. As a writer/artist (George) and an engineer (Darren), What is the basis for your worldview?

They talked for some time of the Bible and rationalism and belief and knowledge and have shown the utmost respect for one another in the process.  But coming to the end of the conversation, will it get intense?  Here’s the finale of George and Darren.  And in case you missed them -

part 1
part 2
part 3 – with Jeff

The first comment from George is from part 3, but is important to read before Darren responds, as Darren references several parts of George’s comments:

George Lippert:  The claim that Truth is unknowable is, in itself, a Truth claim. What is the basis for this Truth claim? Using your previous comments, I’m led to the next few questions.

I appreciate that you use analogies. You describe us as people wandering aimlessly in a foggy wood. We are unable to know the full Truth about this wood because none of us can see the whole of it. I’ll call this the Holistic Quotient.

On the other hand, you compare Truth about spiritual matters (vague and disparate) to the Truth about the mass of an electron (measurable and uniform). I’ll call this the Disparity Quotient, and I think it is a very fair question, one that I consider myself at length.

The Holistic Quotient is one you already addressed by acknowledging that, eventually, one has to make logical assumptions based on the available evidence. Thus, you do not need to measure every electron on earth to determine a logical assumption of its mass. And yet you say that since we cannot experience the absolute totality of God’s alleged omnipotence, said omnipotence cannot be assumed. Why?

The Disparity Quotient is admittedly trickier, methinks. Still, how does disparity of beliefs about spiritual matters deny that there might be one absolute Truth? Many people might disagree about the contents of a mysterious box (think of the classic thought experiment of Schrodinger’s Cat), but that does not imply that there is not one constant truth regarding what actually IS in the box.

To claim that disparity of beliefs means there is no such thing as Truth seems to me like saying that in a world of second graders there would be no such thing as algebra. Mathematical Truths exist even if the second graders have no concept of them (although they themselves may deny it vehemently).

So. All that to say, how do you back up your Truth claim that there is no way of knowing Truth? I believe I know Truth (albeit in a limited form, revealed by God’s revelation through the Bible, and through NO act of wisdom, wit, or worth on my part). Your worldview denies mine. Therefore, I would be curious to know what your basis is for it. Why, in short, am I wrong?

Darren bell:  I don’t actually have a problem with faith, but I believe faith should be put within reasonable limits. Faith should be salted by an understanding that as humans our perspectives are very limited, and we cannot make claims larger then what we actually have knowledge of.

I don’t believe any ground exists where it is possible to say that one religion is right and one is wrong, or that there is one true path, etc. To say that you need the top of the mountain view, and no human being has that.

All tertiary claims of having a top of the mountain perspective to me are no better. To say, “I do not have knowledge of the top of the mountain, but I know the creator of the mountain, and he told me what the mountain looks like from the top” or any variation of divine revelation through a secondary source whether person or book still claims to have irrefutable knowledge of the source. The source makes claims greater then humans can reasonably make, but you trust the source, so you allow it to make greater claims then you would yourself. At different points in our lives we all do this. I had a conversation with a friend of mine earlier this week about a relationship, and she was giving me advice and I recognized that in my current circumstances she had more perspective on my life then I did so I listened to her. Because I know her I trusted her and I recognized that my decision making ability was impaired.

I have three problems with extending what I mention above about my friend to religion. 1) I’m still responsible for that decision, and almost all of the facts surrounding the decision are obtainable by me, it’s just confusing. Meaning that the advice I accepted wasn’t out of the circle I have drawn around myself for what I can and cannot know, she was just helping me make sense of the facts I had in my circle. That I had observed or experienced firsthand and involve people I know. 2) The evidence required to substantiate the claims that because you know God in your own sphere means he is God everywhere and over everyone in order for you to extrapolate his seeming omnipotence to you to the universe are very high, and as far as I can tell unobtainable. 3) The subjectiveness of the argument, and the fact that the subjectiveness of spirituality does not lead to consensus but leads to dissent and that there are literally millions of people all claiming to know absolute truths, or claiming to know the creator that has told them the Truth, that contradict each other should concern any person. It is highly concerning.

In the 21st century we literally lock people up that say they have received divine revelation or know personally the God of the universe, unless they are part of an established church. I don’t believe any of the evidence of the Bible stands up to modern critique and the rigorousness by which we judge it is watered down because of it’s antiquity and the mysticism surrounding it. If anyone claimed that someone rose from the dead today we don’t believe them, it doesn’t matter how much proof they have or what they say. As modern people we believe that to be impossible. But it was possible 2000 years ago!

But in the end I concede that to my mind there is enough room for God even in the most reasonable and rigorously defined formulation of knowledge. Our doubts and unknowable are just too great. And though I have serious concerns about that moral compass of mine leading me towards religion just being sociological and cultural baggage . . . there the needle rests none the less.

Faith salted in this way leads to respect of other people, it leads to humility when viewing yourself and it leads to you putting yourself in a worldview that includes other people and is able to be widened by others experiences also.

GL:  Thanks Darren.

DB:  I wouldn’t say that my worldview denies that there might be Truth, or even that the Bible reveals God through revelation. I like your analogy about the second graders and algebra, but the only thing I would say about it is that you say that second graders can’t comprehend something higher then them, but that that higher thing exists in spite of their knowledge of it. And yet, if you give second graders the chance to advance mathematics . . . you would wind up short of algebra or calculus. You would end up with a mess.

Sans an algebra book of course, which is what we all claim we have.

Here indeed is the crux of the whole issue:

“But honestly, here’s the nub of it: if Christianity isn’t true for everyone, then it isn’t true at all. That’s evident in Jesus’ own words. Call it arrogant, simple-minded, and culturally insensitive, but none of those things are arguments against the veracity of the claim.”

I agree with you that this doctrine is true. And it is the chief conflict of my religious thought at the moment.

Because I assert that you do not have the authority to say such a thing. To make such a claim. And more to the point: I think it is too far reaching to allow the Bible the authority to make such a point.

It is beyond what it is possible for a human to know. I do not believe that any amount of historical or psychological evidence can support the claim (especially in light of the conflict of other people against such views) that the Bible is the revelation from God that is applicable to all human beings.

The more I look at myself and the arguments and evidence I rely on. The more I see other people saying the opposite thing from me who rely on the same subjective experiences, cultural momentum and historical evidences backing up their antithesis. And it shakes my foundations and makes me questions the basis of all my beliefs, correctly so.

That being said, I don’t reject that God may exist. But my rationality forces me to frame God within my known limits of what I can have the ability to declare. I do not have the ability to know whether the Bible is God’s inerrant word for all human kind, and therefore I do not claim it is, regardless of the fact that according to it’s internal doctrine I must claim that in order to adhere to it perfectly. I can BELIEVE, I can have FAITH, but I cannot KNOW.

GL:  I like it when we find places that we can agree upon, even if our perspectives on them are totally different. Again, I suspect this could go on forever, so for now I am content to say “good topic everybody!”

George Lippert

Darren Bell

Round three took place on a quiet Monday afternoon, as George worked at his computer in St. Louis and Darren nodded off at his workplace in Philly.  But just when things were starting to quiet down, my friend Jeff asked to read the conversation, and believing the conversation to be a part of an ‘all-in’ facebook thread, he intervened, and brought new life to the conversation.  You can read parts 1 and 2 here and here.

Jeff Campbell (JC):  This is Jeff Campbell. What an awesome go around. There’s a whole bunch of things I’d love to chime in on. But I think I’d like to muddy the waters in one quite specific way. I think this really applies to both of the positions I’ve seen lain out here.
The question (which I’ll admit is a wee bit loaded) for me is this:
In most of our relationships, we don’t wander around looking for propositionally sound logic. I don’t make any attempt to inductively or deductively prove my love for my wife.
Why does this appear to be our sole mode of discussion about God?
I’ll buy that some of this belongs– since George has never met my wife (Darren has) I might owe him some sort of scientific/mathematically sound argument to prove her existence.
I believe in Truth with a capital T but agnowledge I only percieve truth with a lower case t; I believe the whole thing is wonderously and glorioiusly subjective in this life…
Any thoughts?

Jeff Campbell

GL:  Hi Jeff,

Just to try a quick stab at this: as you say, if I (for some reason) decided to deny that your wife exists, it would not be enough for you to tell me that she exists because you love her. I would require SOME sort of scientific, objective proof. While I myself am content that the Bible’s claims are true, that Christianity is the one way to God, etc, I respect the doubts of those who require more concrete, measurable evidence. In the case of your wife, you could merely point at her and say, “there she is,” case closed. Making the case for Christian belief with those who do not immediately except the inerrency of the Bible (or my subjective experience of it), etc, is a very different prospect.

Fortunately, I think the truth of Christianity can indeed be shown (although not conclusively proven) by historical, psychological evidence. As you know, many skeptics have approached the historical record with intention to disprove Christianity only to become converts themselves.

Thus, I am reluctant to merely state “Christianity is true because this is how it subjectively effects me”. The Truth is not true because I believe it. It’s true even if no one believes it. That’s what makes it Truth. I respect the doubter and the true skeptic enough to deal with the issue on their terms.

At least, as much as possible.

DB:

George Lippert

Darren Bell

George Lippert and Darren Bell.

A creative  and an engineer, both who happen to be friends of mine, and today I’d like to introduce you to a new feature of Martyholman.com.  Both George and Darren are really really smart.  Now I wouldn’t tell them this, but when I see them write on facebook or their blogs or when I chat with them, their insight and thoughts have inspired me to think more, so as a connector, I had an idea.

Why not get them to help more people think in a gentleman’s dual of intellect.

So I asked George and Darren, as two men who think very different from one another in some ways, and very much alike in others, to answer a question that I would ask via email, and then chat back and forth about their answers.  Along the way, Jeff Campbell gets involved in the conversation, and he makes things even more interesting.  Because this conversation was so lengthy, these posts will last most of the week.  I trust you’ll be inspired to think thorugh their conversation and ask questions to all the participants.  So I’d like to introduce you to George (GL) and Darren (DB).

MH:  So tell us a bit about yourselves.

George Lippert:  I’m a full time CG artist and part-time writer currently haunting the suburbs of St. Louis. Between being a husband, a father of two awesome little kidlets, paying taxes, cooking Mexican food, mowing the lawn, keeping my 100-year-old house from falling down, and playing lots of racing video games, I formulate lots and lots of “controversial” opinions. Some of them I will surely share below.

Darren Bell:  I’m Darren Bell. I’m a Chemical Engineer living in Philadelphia that lived for 6 years in New England mostly going to college and one of those years attending Fellowship Church. Spiritually I’ve been all over the spectrum from an Ayn Rand-esque athiest to going through 40 Days of Purpose. The last couple years I’ve been away from the church and Christianity, in the past 6 months I’ve found a church I really like in Philadelphia. Although aesthetically something appeals to me in Christianity and also I find it helpful to be reminded of certain morals I tend to forget I am pretty much agnostic.

Fremont Baptist Temple’s Christmas Cantatas in the 80′s and 90′s were big.  Big everything.  Big drama.  Big music.  Big crowds.  Big hair.  Practice for the choir started in the fall on Sunday evenings a few hours before the Sunday 6pm service.  From the age of 13 I sang in the choir, first as a tenor, then sometime after puberty when I didn’t sound like Charlotte Church anymore, bass.  I loved getting to sing with guys like Steve and Bill, and contributing to the production as a whole.

Sheltered isn’t even the word to begin to describe who I was in those days, because it wasn’t just that I was actually sheltered, but I embodied my parents desire to shelter me.  That is, I never really fought it.  I so wanted to not disappoint them or even impress them at times that I did my best to tow the line when it came to all things “worldly.”

So one Christmas our church performed a production entitled, “Born to die.” The story and song told of a young man who walked away from his family’s Christian tradition to go live with his friends in “the world” and no doubt do some pretty monstrous things like listen to AC/DC  and smoke and get to 2nd base and beyond with his worldly girlfriends.  Eventually our young protaganist loses his job and has no money, which is right about the time all his friends leave him for better concerts (Poison perhaps?) and his girlfriends  go looking for hotter guys with money.

Eventually he gets to the place where he gets evicted from his apartment, and has nothing but a desire to return home for Christmas, a very few dollars, and a gold watch his grandfather had given him years earlier.  So he goes to the bus station trying to get home and attempts to talk the ticket guy into giving him a cheap ticket since he doesn’t have enough money to get across the street much less back home.  A conversation ensues and the guy ends up feeling bad for the repentant hero, and barters with him to trade a ticket home for his grandfather’s gold watch, which also happens to be the last remaining worldly possession the young man has.

I remember sitting in the choir during the rehearsals and the performances refreshed to know that I would never end up like that guy, stripped of everything because of his stupid decisions which could have been avoided had he just listened to what the Bible taught.

Years later I found myself in Christian college, still towing the line and making my parents proud of me for what I was not doing, when I became a floor leader (the rest of the world calls it an RA, but the “tattle tale” structure was different there).  One of my responsibilities was called “shadowing”.  “Shadowing” was necessary when a young male or female college student didn’t tow the line via the rules of the college, and when they got caught (if it were a big enough crime, like going to the movies or talking to the person they were dating on an unchaperoned sidewalk), they would have to go through an appeals process to stay in the school.  During the appeals process, the person being “shadowed” would have to follow the floor leader around their classes or to their rooms and they couldn’t talk to anyone else besides administration or floor leaders.

I remember “shadowing” several of those people during my junior and senior years in college, and feeling sorry for what they were going through, but also encountering a certain happiness that I was glad I would never go through that situation or be like those people, having lost many of their college friends because of one or two bad choices they made when they could have just followed God’s advice.

Then I graduated from school and moved to Atlanta to become a high school history teacher.  I really loved it, but working at a christian school I got paid enough to eat and sometimes pay the rent.  My real life had started, away from the rules and the people telling me what to do and towing the line.  I remember one beautiful September day walking on the school campus feeling like I could take on the world, having put myself in a great situation, loving the co-workers and students with whom I was constantly  surrounded.  And I thanked God I was not that guy who would sell his soul and his family out for a good time, or those people who messed their life plans up by some stupid choice to go off campus and visit Hooters or other people I knew who did bad things.  I towed the line.  I did the right things.

And then, just like that, I became that guy/those people and I would never be the same.

Ever since I first remember reading Romans 14, I have had difficulty using language, entertainment, and real estate as the means to create a sub culture for Christendom.  Christian coffeehouses, Christian music, and words that only Christians understand get used up to create this distance between the one who has trusted Christ, and the billions of other people in the world around us.

In fact, I think building a subculture of Christian stuff is probably one of the worst ideas in human history, outside of Nero burning down his own city, of course.

If one uses the Bible as her guide, what she notices is that God had his chosen people, the Israelites, to be a light in a dark world.  To show the rest of the world that there is a better way, when that way comes from the God who created everything.  And Israel did okay for a while.  Even King David, the most famous of all of Israel’s leaders (with apologies to Moses), messed up a time or three, yet he was still known as a man after God’s own heart.  So it wasn’t necessarily the sin that tore up Israel’s relationship with God, but there was something deeper than just their outward failure to comply to God’s laws.

So God showed forgiveness and mercy in a huge way over hundreds of years of them turning their back on Him.  But then eventually He sends the Messiah, Jesus Christ, into the world.  Why then?  So by that time, Israel’s religion had come to a different place, away from what was really intended.  They had come to believe that they were different then everyone else just because they were Israelites.  As we know today, no group of people is more special than another group of people just because of their race, gender, or religion.  What makes anyone different from anyone else always comes from inside us and never from outside of us.

Then Jesus ultimately dies a cruel death on a tree, and pays a price that I was not willing to pay, eventually rising again to life and to the Father.  But He came into a world not only to die, but also to show us how to be a light in a very dark world.  And then what do we do in response to this fabulous act of kindness?

We create segregated churches and keep stale churches alive longer than they should.  We eat our potlucks in the church mess hall and go on our weekend retreats.  We buy our books from Christian bookstores and learn the necessary 8 syllable words that no one understands unless they’ve gone through 20 years of Christian school like I did.  We listen to our Christian music and reprimand anyone who dares to listen to “secular music” (or regular music as I prefer to call it, just like what I call music with Christ at the center).  In reality, we block ourselves in so we’re not tainted by the rest of the world.  Then we say to said world that thinks were crazy (not because we’re being light, mind you, but because we’re not), “Come, be a part of my thing.”

And for the most part, their response is, “Hell no.”

But what if we told them that to surrender to God, you don’t need to be like me or do my thing, but you just have to…well, surrender to God, and put your faith in the person of Jesus Christ who paved a way for them to do that?  And sometimes that means you should stop doing things that take you away from that goal, and sometimes that means you should probably start doing some things that move you towards that goal, like getting involved in Christian community.

That community might include me, or it might not, but it certainly is not about me – of that I am certain.

And what if we made our churches agents of push rather than leeches of pull, sucking the life out of everything that walks into its dark doors?

Wow…that sort of thing would take humility, sacrifice, and a change of mind and heart.

This week, Fellowship Church continued the church (small c) wide series “One Prayer” with 1493 other churches and 849, 036 people (at last count).  We represent a small portion of that numerically, but I feel like our church is coming together to pray and to fellowship in ways that I could have never imagined.  I’m so excited about the direction of “the FC” and how our people are stepping to become part of the “One church” God wants us to be.

This week’s service is one I won’t forget for a long time, from beginning to end, as there just seemed to be a spirit of humility and unity in the entire room.  I can’t of course speak for everyone, but I’m just sharing my perception of the morning.  I spoke on my “one prayer” for the church-at-large – “God, make us lead.”  I thought I would share my outline with you in this post, in case you missed it or were interested.  Later I’ll share the podcast.

“Make us lead”

“Leadership is not reserved for those in position power. The leader is the one who cares most about the mission or endeavor.”- by someone.

Our mission – “To lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.

How do I make other people want to lead?  Dont teach them bullet points, or that it’s cool to lead, teach them to care with all their hearts about “Leading people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.”

As a church, what I want for us is to be successful at our mission, “to LEAD”

To lead is to care.  This is not about personality!

If you don’t “care” about your (Family, job, time, finances) someone will “care” (lead) for you.

My testimony – Good kid.  Went to Christian school, Christian college, bought Christian t-shirts, and I didn’t care.

The story of Samson, the judge who God had a purpose for, but didn’t care.

Hebrews 12:1a - 

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith,

Sexual sin
Pride
greed,
gossip

And then there are the things that probably aren’t sin, but just hold us up.  What are those things in your life?

“sin takes you farther than you want to go, keeps you longer than you want to stay, and costs more than you want to pay.”

 “And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.”

 Hupomones – “the characteristic of a person who is not swerved from his or her deliberate purpose and his or her loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings.”

I’m afraid for some the hardships are too hard and the discipline it takes to follow Christ is too great, and so we’re not willing.

Hebrews 12:5-11
“No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening!”
We have to be willing to overcome. Willing to go through adversity. (email 1)

Usually what we do is complain, gossip, and worry. 

“People become our heroes because they fight through things and overcome circumstances, not because they’re glorious.”

Become somebodys hero!

and here’s how we do that (run with endurance), the writer of Hebrews says,
“by keeping our eyes on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from start to finish.”

 So this is how the author finishes the thought in Hebrews 12:12,13

 12 So take a new grip with your tired hands and strengthen your weak knees. 13 Mark out a straight path for your feet so that those follow you, the weak and lame, will not fall but become strong.

Because what you do will be effects those people who follow you – your kids, your friends, your loved ones.

1.  Heroes seem to be in the right place at the right time.
2.  Heroes fight through adversity.
3.  Heroes don’t have to tell everyone what they did.
4.   Heroes work on it, or they stop becoming heroes

 Become somebodys hero!

 Here’s what this looks like for the church - creating environments for people that are relevant and focused for people to connect and grow in a relationship with Jesus Christ.

How you can be a part:
Do what you can do.
Build real community in the life of your church.  (why I believe in small groups)
care about the mission.

As I write this, I want you to know that I’m not angry and I’m not bitter at any particular Christian sect or group.  How’s that for a starter?

I wanted to write today about a phenomenon that exists in American Christianity of which I have thought about frequently and am attempting to change.  It’s an iron curtain, but not one of guns and hatred, but one of comfort.  This iron curtain is a spiritual one and rests not in Europe, Asia, or Africa, but just south of New York.  The curtain divides the northeast (and specifically New England) from the rest of the United States.

I moved here 10 years ago, being born in Northwest Ohio, going to college in Florida, and living for short periods of time in Tucson and Atlanta.  Almost immediately God gave me a passion for this area and for the people in Massachusetts. 

Outside of this place, the Northeast is looked at as a place that could do with or without God, a place that is cold to the gospel, and a place filled with rude people who drive as arrogantly as they talk (so 1 out of 3 ain’t bad).  But since I moved here, what I’ve found is people in love with the truth.  Not what they’ve been taught.  Not what they’ve been told.  Not necessarily with the traditions they’ve grown up with (though they have them too).  But the truth.

So here’s the thing I’m trying to figure out.  If this place is so cold to the gospel, then why would more people from this beloved “Christian culture Bible belt thing” we have going on from Florida to Idaho, not be moving their families away from this subculture in our society – one of affluence and comfort, to a very difficult place where it’s gonna take 5 years to see any kind of fruit?

I love going to conferences like Catalyst and C3 and other such venues to get fired up about what God is doing, but when I do, I wonder how many of these pastors or leaders or lawyers or teachers or whoever would be a great asset to our difficult task of reaching people with the gospel in the Northeast.

There are people going to the Middle East and Asia and the Philippines and third world countries by the scores.  And tons and tons of Christ followers are moving to some super-growing cities like Charlotte or Columbus (Ohio, not Gerorgia) to start churches.  But I don’t exactly see people lining up to make their way into New England (one of the great technology areas in the US, by the way).

And so we try to place a band-aid on a bullet wound.  The southern baptists, who I respect in a great way and believe are doing some great things, send their college students on yearly mission trips to New England colleges.  By the time the college grads are finished, many of them hate the winter,and despise working so hard to have 30 students come to their things when back home there was 100.  So in the end, they are seduced by the community back home.

What we need up here is talented men and women, the best and most creative people that places like California, Florida, and Texas have to offer(preferably people who are not cry babies when it’s cold), who will come and utilize those gifts here, even though they would probably be leaving their family and friends for a place not quite as cozy as home.  (But I do believe I recall Christ calling people that direction in Scripture)

People like Steve, who has brought his family here from Missouri, and worked through a lot of hard times in the process.  Or Anthony, who left the comforts of Pennsylvania in the late 90’s and who has now started 4 other churches besides the successful one he pastors now.  Or this church in Boston, which originated from a group of people that were sent from this church in Chicago because of the vision of this pastor and have done quite nicely for themselves.

I say all this today because I believe that the iron curtain that divides New England from the rest of the country is one-sided.  This area is ready for the gospel.  Not a subculture.  Not a conference. Not a political ideology.  Not even a Christian radio station (we can check that out on the internet if we really want to).  But the gospel.

And if there’s anything I can do to make your stay here more comfortable, just say the word.

Until next time…