Darren Bell

George Lippert

Yesterday I introduced a conversation between my friends George and Darren.  I know them from two completely different contexts, but from my recent facebook interactions with them, I noticed that they were very similar in some ways and very different in others.  So I thought I would ask them to answer some questions for me via email, then replay the action here at martyholman.com.  The following is part 2 of that discussion.  You can find part 1 here.

George Lippert (GL):  Intellectually and spiritually stimulating, Darren.

If I understand you correctly (and pardon me if I am boiling down a stew to make a pill), is it a fair summary to say that your perspective is basically that everyone’s truth is true for them but not necessarily true for anyone else? All religions are equal (different paths up the same mountain)? In essence, is it the case that all truths are relative to he/she who believes them, based on the proposition that, to them, those truths order their world, give them clarity, and therefore serve the basic purpose of a belief system?

Darren Bell (DB):  Partly. But mostly I think I’m trying to say something deeper.

To take the mountain analogy and the famous humanist scenario of many people walking up the mountain from different sides all moving towards an ascendancy, the top of the mountain. A friend once told me that that story has the major flaw of all bad philosophy, that it fails to take itself into account and be self-reflective. The story requires a view from the top of the mountain to propose.

When I was thinking about your summary earlier today my first response was “No! I’m claiming there is no mountain at all!” Then I realized that is also claiming a knowledge that I don’t have.

To keep the mountain metaphor going in my view people are walking around in a forest with ~20 yards of visibility. In walking around we meet other people and talk to them about what they have seen walking around. And sometimes you meet people that are walking around that claim that we are all on a mountain, and that some people are going the correct way in the forest and others are going the incorrect way.

I hate the word truth. The sentence “Everyone’s truth is true for them” to me is the whole problem, and it is what most people do. They have experiences, they put those experiences together and then they blanket the world with them and operate like they are true for everyone. I think it is a very subtle difference but it is to me, an important difference in attitude about how you view your ‘own truth’ or ‘own worldview’. And that you DON’T let your personal truth become Truth.

Because Truth is unknowable.

To talk even briefly about the God thing. To know for a fact that God existed using the faculties we have you would have to be able to witness his infinity. Literally, to say God is infinite you have to see his infinity, you have to see or experience his omnipotence everywhere and through all time. Maybe there is a very strong force that operates in my cubicle at work, as far as I know it is omnipotent. But when I go to my co-workers cubicle he is no longer powerful there.

Now I understand that at some point for knowledge to grow you have to extrapolate knowledge from your circle of experiences and make assumptions about the way the rest of the world works. The problem with most of spirituality though is that the experiences people have are GLARINGLY DIFFERENT!! In science when a scientist measures the mass of an electron every other scientist measures the same mass. However when people follow their ‘internal moral compass’ everyone scatters like cats each chasing their own cubicle god and claiming it is God. “Well he is god in my cubicle so he must be God everywhere.” That is bad extrapolation. And the myriad of human experience tells us that is bad extrapolation because there is no consistency of experience between one person and the next.

I don’t have Truth. I have experiences and perspective, and those things can never be wrong, only my interpretations of their meaning can be wrong. Because of that I try to be very careful with my interpretations of there meaning and confine that interpretation into what I believe claims that can be rationally asserted and are also going to be true for the next person that has the same experiences as me. You know . . . more or less.

GL:  Thanks for going into it again, Darren. Obviously I disagree on some major points, but I won’t spend anymore time in this post hashing over it (unless you and Marty wish it). We could go on for volumes, I am sure. I do agree with you vigorously on the futility of seeking Truth through subjective personal cogitations and speculations. I suspect we humans no more contain Truth than lightning bugs contain Lightning (to paraphrase the immortal Twain).

MH:  Actually, I wish it. Would love to hear your answers to his, and maybe another round or two.

GL:  Well, honestly, my answer is just a couple more questions. I really don’t mean for this to be belligerent, so I apologize in advance if this sounds obtuse.  The claim that Truth is unknowable is, in itself, a Truth claim. What is the basis for this Truth claim? Using your previous comments, I’m led to the next few questions.

I appreciate that you use analogies. You describe us as people wandering aimlessly in a foggy wood. We are unable to know the full Truth about this wood because none of us can see the whole of it. I’ll call this the Holistic Quotient.
On the other hand, you compare Truth about spiritual matters (vague and disparate) to the Truth about the mass of an electron (measurable and uniform). I’ll call this the Disparity Quotient, and I think it is a very fair question, one that I consider myself at length.

The Holistic Quotient is one you already addressed by acknowledging that, eventually, one has to make logical assumptions based on the available evidence. Thus, you do not need to measure every electron on earth to determine a logical assumption of its mass. And yet you say that since we cannot experience the absolute totality of God’s alleged omnipotence, said omnipotence cannot be assumed. Why?

The Disparity Quotient is admittedly trickier, methinks. Still, how does disparity of beliefs about spiritual matters deny that there might be one absolute Truth? Many people might disagree about the contents of a mysterious box (think of the classic thought experiment of Schrodinger’s Cat), but that does not imply that there is not one constant truth regarding what actually IS in the box.

To claim that disparity of beliefs means there is no such thing as Truth seems to me like saying that in a world of second graders there would be no such thing as algebra. Mathematical Truths exist even if the second graders have no concept of them (although they themselves may deny it vehemently).

So. All that to say, how do you back up your Truth claim that there is no way of knowing Truth? I believe I know Truth (albeit in a limited form, revealed by God’s revelation through the Bible, and through NO act of wisdom, wit, or worth on my part). Your worldview denies mine. Therefore, I would be curious to know what your basis is for it. Why, in short, am I wrong?

MH:  Feel free to comment your thoughts and opinions.

George Lippert

Darren Bell

George Lippert and Darren Bell.

A creative  and an engineer, both who happen to be friends of mine, and today I’d like to introduce you to a new feature of Martyholman.com.  Both George and Darren are really really smart.  Now I wouldn’t tell them this, but when I see them write on facebook or their blogs or when I chat with them, their insight and thoughts have inspired me to think more, so as a connector, I had an idea.

Why not get them to help more people think in a gentleman’s dual of intellect.

So I asked George and Darren, as two men who think very different from one another in some ways, and very much alike in others, to answer a question that I would ask via email, and then chat back and forth about their answers.  Along the way, Jeff Campbell gets involved in the conversation, and he makes things even more interesting.  Because this conversation was so lengthy, these posts will last most of the week.  I trust you’ll be inspired to think thorugh their conversation and ask questions to all the participants.  So I’d like to introduce you to George (GL) and Darren (DB).

MH:  So tell us a bit about yourselves.

George Lippert:  I’m a full time CG artist and part-time writer currently haunting the suburbs of St. Louis. Between being a husband, a father of two awesome little kidlets, paying taxes, cooking Mexican food, mowing the lawn, keeping my 100-year-old house from falling down, and playing lots of racing video games, I formulate lots and lots of “controversial” opinions. Some of them I will surely share below.

Darren Bell:  I’m Darren Bell. I’m a Chemical Engineer living in Philadelphia that lived for 6 years in New England mostly going to college and one of those years attending Fellowship Church. Spiritually I’ve been all over the spectrum from an Ayn Rand-esque athiest to going through 40 Days of Purpose. The last couple years I’ve been away from the church and Christianity, in the past 6 months I’ve found a church I really like in Philadelphia. Although aesthetically something appeals to me in Christianity and also I find it helpful to be reminded of certain morals I tend to forget I am pretty much agnostic.

When I read a book, I don’t read details and individual points.  I read general concepts.  This is how I do it.  This is who I am.  So when I tell someone I’ve read a book I’ve enjoyed, and they totally believe it’s blasphemous or heretical or even absurd, then they proceed to show me why on pages, 22, 47, 89, 217, and of course, 666, I am wrong for enjoying the book.   I don’t even read there emails or letters in depth.  I read, “Wow, they are against that book in a way that I am not.”

In truth, I am a bit envious of people like that.  People who can take the time and have the skill set to completely parse each corner and section of a passage written by an author, then tell me what’s good and/or bad about said topic as far as each section/line of the book.

I also wonder how they’re not bipolar (see “A Beautiful Mind”).  For no human can possibly get everything right, and I’m sure there are agreements and disagreements about every human author’s writings, namely because there are agreements and disagreements between the writings of the book inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.

With that said, On December 28th, 2009, I began to read the Bible within a 90 day period.  Some called it B90X, after the popular and intense workout video series.  I wouldn’t suggest this type of reading for everyone, because it’s not for everyone.  I would say its for people who are like me.  They read quickly and take away the one or two main concepts of the book being read.  Reading an average of 16 chapters a day probably wouldn’t work for those prone to taking apart every line they read every time they read.

But for those like me, I found the quick trip through the Scriptures refreshing and wonderful, learning things and seeing things I had never seen before.  From the beginning of time when God’s amazing creation breathed its first breath to John’s last apocalyptic visions, I was introduced to a story like no other, all of which I’d heard before, but never in an entire complete scenario at one condensed time period.  In this reading, for the first time in my life, the writings of Moses and Samuel and David connected so tightly with Luke and John and Paul that I could see the family resemblance.

The Gospel of Jesus came to life once again, as I read about how my Saviour, the Messiah, would live and serve, then apparently be crushed and killed, then be raised again to be with His Father, but not until after He spent a bit more time teaching those He had walked with  and discipled for three years.

The best way to describe this way of reading through Scripture is the difference between Watching “Lost” week to week for years and years, and the watching it on DVD through the whole story in one short portion of time.  If you’ve ever sat together with your spouse or a friend and watched episode after episode and season after season of a show, this is the way it feels.  It comes to life in one shot!

For me, this way of reading the Bible is going to be a habit, for it screams of my best chance to learn and grow from that reading.  This is who I am.  If you’re an adventurer, I suggest you try it out once and see how you like it.  If you don’t, stop.  But I suggest that a regular reading of the Bible is important, not only because of what God did those many years ago in Creation to the redemption of the world through Jesus, but because of what He’s doing now in our world.

You can find a 90 day Bible reading plan or another 29 or so plans at youversion.com, a ministry of Lifechurch.tv

Bible reading rocks!

I’m wondering what I would look like if I were to become the ultimate Christian.  Better yet, what do you think I look like when I become the ultimate Christian?

Do I pray all the time?
Do I immerse myself in the Bible and study, study, study?
Do I serve and love and give like Mother Theresa?
Does fasting become a part of my routine schedule?
Is my attendance at every church service, Bible study, and prayer meeting required?

I’ve just been thinking about this lately and wanted to know what you thought.  Is there an end goal?  Is Jesus that end goal?  Is it possible to translate all of the things He did into our culture today?  For years we’ve split into denominations and factions because we can’t agree on this answer, while Jesus prayed that we may be brought to unity for the worlds sake. So please share…

What does your Christian utopia look like?

Bible passage – Haggai
I really dig this book and have enjoyed reading it over and over. Not to mention looking into the history of the Jewish prophet.  Can you pronounce his name?

Book – Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell
Ever wonder why Two people can have an equal amount of intellectual brilliance or have an equal portion of athletic prowess, yet, one is “successful” in their careers and one is not?  Read this book and find out.

Music – Mike Dunn and the Kings of New England
I heard about this band from my boy in Atlanta (ironically enough) Dave Huey, and love their sound!  Good stuff.

Times of solitude
If you know me, you know I like to be around people and entertainment.  This little storm we’ve gone through in Massachusetts has allowed me to learn the value of getting away from the noise and spending lots of time in solitude.

Carie
There’s nobody cooler in the whole world than my wife Carie.  She’s amazing!

I saved the best for last.

Today is the last day of July.

The Passage of Scripture I’m preaching on this week:  1 Corinthians 9

I would love to follow each other on Twitter:  How about it?

My two favorite posts of the day can be found here and here.

Mike Burns is in the house from Germany and can be found at Fellowship Church playing the drums this weekend!

Our lead team worked our tails off this morning to prepare for the future!

Part1, part 2, or part 3

Hey, guess what I’m doing right now. Come on, guess, just this once…

I’m creating content, the number 4 way that is changing the world and my world right in front of our eyes.  The freedom and ability of all of us to do what we can do when we like to do it at a low cost (if any).  So I blog because I like to write.  WordPress or blogspot or typepad give us the “freedom” and the platform to blog and to start a conversation about life or religion or politics or any number of topics that we may associate ourselves with.  Facebook and Myspace give us the freedom to start a web site about ourselves that can interact with other web sites that talk about our friends.  And with google, I can have the weather, a map, all the blogs I read, my to-do list, my news, my calendar, my podcasts from Fellowship Church, and any free itunes downloads I can have access too all on the same page.  And it’s all “created by me.”  (Everything but the codes)

And this is just the social aspects of it.  New academics can join the Wikipedia community and write (or rewrite) essays for the encyclopedia version of things that we want to know about like William Wallace and The War of 1812.  New reporters can make a name for themselves without having to interview inside of any newspaper establishment.  Computer programmers who want to go beyond the scope of their jobs can do so on their own time solving problems in “open source” software communities.  Bible teachers can now wax eloquent with their own studies in places like You Version.  Retired?  Thats a thing of the past if you want to keep going.  I read a story recently about a retired scientist who had retired from a company and then got involved with solving “open source” problems offered on the web by the scientific community.  He solved problems to the tune of $25,000 a pop.

And this is in our hands.  We now have more tools to do what we love and to create content.  Sure we might have to still stay up late and write or solve or search or draw, but the point is this – we can create content and be a part of something bigger than ourselves, and do it with things we love to do.  Now the only question is…

What do you love to do?

Special thanks to those of you who have helped “create” this discussion on where our world is going. 

The following is a post for Randy Elrod’s Watercooler Wednesday, which I try to particpate in each week, and by the way, you should too.

Recently I’ve had several people come to me and ask me what I think about technology and the Bible mixing.  I tell them I like it.  Technology, and specifically computers, make the study of the Bible very quick to find information we’re looking for.  But then they bring up other problems, like this one:

“What if I’m not supposed to be on the computer because of a limitation I have placed on myself, but that’s the way I typically read through the Bible?”

Now the obvious answer to this is to just open up the actual Bible and read.  I think, if one has given themselves a self-imposed limitation, that this is the best thing to do.  However, eventually, our lives are going to be on a tiny machine, and I wonder if that will be such an easy decision.  Like say in, 50 years or so.

Anyone ready to lay down the books and go “wholly machined” yet?