George Lippert

Darren Bell

Round three took place on a quiet Monday afternoon, as George worked at his computer in St. Louis and Darren nodded off at his workplace in Philly.  But just when things were starting to quiet down, my friend Jeff asked to read the conversation, and believing the conversation to be a part of an ‘all-in’ facebook thread, he intervened, and brought new life to the conversation.  You can read parts 1 and 2 here and here.

Jeff Campbell (JC):  This is Jeff Campbell. What an awesome go around. There’s a whole bunch of things I’d love to chime in on. But I think I’d like to muddy the waters in one quite specific way. I think this really applies to both of the positions I’ve seen lain out here.
The question (which I’ll admit is a wee bit loaded) for me is this:
In most of our relationships, we don’t wander around looking for propositionally sound logic. I don’t make any attempt to inductively or deductively prove my love for my wife.
Why does this appear to be our sole mode of discussion about God?
I’ll buy that some of this belongs– since George has never met my wife (Darren has) I might owe him some sort of scientific/mathematically sound argument to prove her existence.
I believe in Truth with a capital T but agnowledge I only percieve truth with a lower case t; I believe the whole thing is wonderously and glorioiusly subjective in this life…
Any thoughts?

Jeff Campbell

GL:  Hi Jeff,

Just to try a quick stab at this: as you say, if I (for some reason) decided to deny that your wife exists, it would not be enough for you to tell me that she exists because you love her. I would require SOME sort of scientific, objective proof. While I myself am content that the Bible’s claims are true, that Christianity is the one way to God, etc, I respect the doubts of those who require more concrete, measurable evidence. In the case of your wife, you could merely point at her and say, “there she is,” case closed. Making the case for Christian belief with those who do not immediately except the inerrency of the Bible (or my subjective experience of it), etc, is a very different prospect.

Fortunately, I think the truth of Christianity can indeed be shown (although not conclusively proven) by historical, psychological evidence. As you know, many skeptics have approached the historical record with intention to disprove Christianity only to become converts themselves.

Thus, I am reluctant to merely state “Christianity is true because this is how it subjectively effects me”. The Truth is not true because I believe it. It’s true even if no one believes it. That’s what makes it Truth. I respect the doubter and the true skeptic enough to deal with the issue on their terms.

At least, as much as possible.

DB:

Darren Bell

George Lippert

Yesterday I introduced a conversation between my friends George and Darren.  I know them from two completely different contexts, but from my recent facebook interactions with them, I noticed that they were very similar in some ways and very different in others.  So I thought I would ask them to answer some questions for me via email, then replay the action here at martyholman.com.  The following is part 2 of that discussion.  You can find part 1 here.

George Lippert (GL):  Intellectually and spiritually stimulating, Darren.

If I understand you correctly (and pardon me if I am boiling down a stew to make a pill), is it a fair summary to say that your perspective is basically that everyone’s truth is true for them but not necessarily true for anyone else? All religions are equal (different paths up the same mountain)? In essence, is it the case that all truths are relative to he/she who believes them, based on the proposition that, to them, those truths order their world, give them clarity, and therefore serve the basic purpose of a belief system?

Darren Bell (DB):  Partly. But mostly I think I’m trying to say something deeper.

To take the mountain analogy and the famous humanist scenario of many people walking up the mountain from different sides all moving towards an ascendancy, the top of the mountain. A friend once told me that that story has the major flaw of all bad philosophy, that it fails to take itself into account and be self-reflective. The story requires a view from the top of the mountain to propose.

When I was thinking about your summary earlier today my first response was “No! I’m claiming there is no mountain at all!” Then I realized that is also claiming a knowledge that I don’t have.

To keep the mountain metaphor going in my view people are walking around in a forest with ~20 yards of visibility. In walking around we meet other people and talk to them about what they have seen walking around. And sometimes you meet people that are walking around that claim that we are all on a mountain, and that some people are going the correct way in the forest and others are going the incorrect way.

I hate the word truth. The sentence “Everyone’s truth is true for them” to me is the whole problem, and it is what most people do. They have experiences, they put those experiences together and then they blanket the world with them and operate like they are true for everyone. I think it is a very subtle difference but it is to me, an important difference in attitude about how you view your ‘own truth’ or ‘own worldview’. And that you DON’T let your personal truth become Truth.

Because Truth is unknowable.

To talk even briefly about the God thing. To know for a fact that God existed using the faculties we have you would have to be able to witness his infinity. Literally, to say God is infinite you have to see his infinity, you have to see or experience his omnipotence everywhere and through all time. Maybe there is a very strong force that operates in my cubicle at work, as far as I know it is omnipotent. But when I go to my co-workers cubicle he is no longer powerful there.

Now I understand that at some point for knowledge to grow you have to extrapolate knowledge from your circle of experiences and make assumptions about the way the rest of the world works. The problem with most of spirituality though is that the experiences people have are GLARINGLY DIFFERENT!! In science when a scientist measures the mass of an electron every other scientist measures the same mass. However when people follow their ‘internal moral compass’ everyone scatters like cats each chasing their own cubicle god and claiming it is God. “Well he is god in my cubicle so he must be God everywhere.” That is bad extrapolation. And the myriad of human experience tells us that is bad extrapolation because there is no consistency of experience between one person and the next.

I don’t have Truth. I have experiences and perspective, and those things can never be wrong, only my interpretations of their meaning can be wrong. Because of that I try to be very careful with my interpretations of there meaning and confine that interpretation into what I believe claims that can be rationally asserted and are also going to be true for the next person that has the same experiences as me. You know . . . more or less.

GL:  Thanks for going into it again, Darren. Obviously I disagree on some major points, but I won’t spend anymore time in this post hashing over it (unless you and Marty wish it). We could go on for volumes, I am sure. I do agree with you vigorously on the futility of seeking Truth through subjective personal cogitations and speculations. I suspect we humans no more contain Truth than lightning bugs contain Lightning (to paraphrase the immortal Twain).

MH:  Actually, I wish it. Would love to hear your answers to his, and maybe another round or two.

GL:  Well, honestly, my answer is just a couple more questions. I really don’t mean for this to be belligerent, so I apologize in advance if this sounds obtuse.  The claim that Truth is unknowable is, in itself, a Truth claim. What is the basis for this Truth claim? Using your previous comments, I’m led to the next few questions.

I appreciate that you use analogies. You describe us as people wandering aimlessly in a foggy wood. We are unable to know the full Truth about this wood because none of us can see the whole of it. I’ll call this the Holistic Quotient.
On the other hand, you compare Truth about spiritual matters (vague and disparate) to the Truth about the mass of an electron (measurable and uniform). I’ll call this the Disparity Quotient, and I think it is a very fair question, one that I consider myself at length.

The Holistic Quotient is one you already addressed by acknowledging that, eventually, one has to make logical assumptions based on the available evidence. Thus, you do not need to measure every electron on earth to determine a logical assumption of its mass. And yet you say that since we cannot experience the absolute totality of God’s alleged omnipotence, said omnipotence cannot be assumed. Why?

The Disparity Quotient is admittedly trickier, methinks. Still, how does disparity of beliefs about spiritual matters deny that there might be one absolute Truth? Many people might disagree about the contents of a mysterious box (think of the classic thought experiment of Schrodinger’s Cat), but that does not imply that there is not one constant truth regarding what actually IS in the box.

To claim that disparity of beliefs means there is no such thing as Truth seems to me like saying that in a world of second graders there would be no such thing as algebra. Mathematical Truths exist even if the second graders have no concept of them (although they themselves may deny it vehemently).

So. All that to say, how do you back up your Truth claim that there is no way of knowing Truth? I believe I know Truth (albeit in a limited form, revealed by God’s revelation through the Bible, and through NO act of wisdom, wit, or worth on my part). Your worldview denies mine. Therefore, I would be curious to know what your basis is for it. Why, in short, am I wrong?

MH:  Feel free to comment your thoughts and opinions.

This weekend is July 4th weekend.  I live in Massachusetts.

The big thing to do in Massachusetts on July 4th, and I mean really big, is go to Boston.  I’ve done this a few times now, and it is really big and really awesome.  The drawback is that millions of other people agree with you and will be there with you, making the ride to leave the city of Boston impossible to do at a decent hour.

A few years ago at Fellowship, we started a new “tradition” on the Sunday of July 4th weekend.  We began having an outdoor service and a party on our property that day.  Last year, the church surprised me by celebrating my 10th anniversary here at this church.  It’s amazing to be around the people you love.  To hang out and play games and talk and enjoy the beauty of God’s creation with your closest friends.

This year, the two events happen to coincide:  Boston’s July 4th, and the Party in the Park.

And if I had my choice (cause really I don’t this week), I’d go relational before I would experiential.

We love the experiential, don’t we?  To experience big things and huge events and the next great adventure.  But one thing I learned a long time ago is that if I had the choice to do experiential or relational, I should pick relational.  I should be where I know people love me and care about me.  I should pour into them and allow them to pour into me.  And I should wallow in the experience of being with my community.  This is why I’ve turned down free tickets to huge games and concerts to attend date night with my wife or small groups during the week.  Because I know at the end of the day, my wife, and the people I share life with, are going to be there with me long after the season ends or the newest tour is finished.

When I was in high school, I had the opportunity to travel on a trip to Mexico with my friends, classmates, and teachers.  It was kind of a missions trip and kind of a learning adventure to an area  of Mexico called Monterrey.  The trip had been planned and we were all pretty excited to go, when I received a call from my uncle Matt, telling me he had some tickets for me to see DC Talk at his church, and then he was sure I would be able to meet them.  I loved DC Talk!!!  It was going to be so epic, and I couldn’t wait, and it was right in the middle of my planned trip to Mexico.

Naturally, I begged my dad to let me go.  I told him it was only Mexico, like one country away, and I could save my traveling for going to a country farther away some day, and that this opportunity wouldn’t last forever, and that DC Talk’s Free at last was the best album ever.  My dad wasn’t feeling it though, and he calmly said I could go to any concert I wanted after I came back from Mexico.

I learned some big lessons on that trip.  I remember eating a jalapeno so hot that it made me vomit in the middle of the street.  I remember the exhilaration of having a high school crush to the experience of said crush taking my heart and crushing it in her cold bony fingers (that’s poetic more than literal, btw).  I remember the beauty of the mountains in Mexico, and the smell of the marketplace cooking in the towns.  But most of all, I remember the people I met there and the people with whom I traveled.  Amazing people.  People who poured into my life for years and helped make not only this experience, but most experiences in the early part of my life much better.

I’ve since gone to numerous DC Talk shows, and seen about 100 other incredible concerts since then, but the one thing I have since learned, that I believe helped change my life, was when it comes to making a decision – Should I do this or this? – Always make that decision with the people who love you the most in mind.

Experiences will come and go, but relationships will tell the world who you really were.

*By the way, this post isn’t even about how horrible July 4th in Boston is.  My friend Jay goes every year with his closest friends (minus me) and makes a day of it.

As a young man, teens into early adulthood, one tends to shy away from encouraging your friends with real and simple words of encouragement.  Instead, one says something like, “Sup man.”  “Nothin’, sup wit’ you?”  “Nutin, man.  ya know, stuff just happenin’”  “Cool.  Cool.”  And if this really intense conversation gets any deeper, it typically has to do with the Celtics or the hottie who just walked into that store.

I don’t remember the first time I started saying things  like “Thank you for being a great example in my life” or “I have to tell you that that act of service was nothing short of amazing” to other people face to face, but I do know that each time I do it, it gets less cheesy and less uncomfortable.  Not saying anything against thank you notes because I like them and I send them, but it takes guts and emotional risk to step outside of your comfort zone and say something absolutely nice and true to someone’s face.  I know, it shouldn’t and it seems weird to say it, but far too often we fear the reaction of others so we keep silent and talk about the weather.  This is especially true for guys.

Is it true for you?

Fremont Baptist Temple’s Christmas Cantatas in the 80′s and 90′s were big.  Big everything.  Big drama.  Big music.  Big crowds.  Big hair.  Practice for the choir started in the fall on Sunday evenings a few hours before the Sunday 6pm service.  From the age of 13 I sang in the choir, first as a tenor, then sometime after puberty when I didn’t sound like Charlotte Church anymore, bass.  I loved getting to sing with guys like Steve and Bill, and contributing to the production as a whole.

Sheltered isn’t even the word to begin to describe who I was in those days, because it wasn’t just that I was actually sheltered, but I embodied my parents desire to shelter me.  That is, I never really fought it.  I so wanted to not disappoint them or even impress them at times that I did my best to tow the line when it came to all things “worldly.”

So one Christmas our church performed a production entitled, “Born to die.” The story and song told of a young man who walked away from his family’s Christian tradition to go live with his friends in “the world” and no doubt do some pretty monstrous things like listen to AC/DC  and smoke and get to 2nd base and beyond with his worldly girlfriends.  Eventually our young protaganist loses his job and has no money, which is right about the time all his friends leave him for better concerts (Poison perhaps?) and his girlfriends  go looking for hotter guys with money.

Eventually he gets to the place where he gets evicted from his apartment, and has nothing but a desire to return home for Christmas, a very few dollars, and a gold watch his grandfather had given him years earlier.  So he goes to the bus station trying to get home and attempts to talk the ticket guy into giving him a cheap ticket since he doesn’t have enough money to get across the street much less back home.  A conversation ensues and the guy ends up feeling bad for the repentant hero, and barters with him to trade a ticket home for his grandfather’s gold watch, which also happens to be the last remaining worldly possession the young man has.

I remember sitting in the choir during the rehearsals and the performances refreshed to know that I would never end up like that guy, stripped of everything because of his stupid decisions which could have been avoided had he just listened to what the Bible taught.

Years later I found myself in Christian college, still towing the line and making my parents proud of me for what I was not doing, when I became a floor leader (the rest of the world calls it an RA, but the “tattle tale” structure was different there).  One of my responsibilities was called “shadowing”.  “Shadowing” was necessary when a young male or female college student didn’t tow the line via the rules of the college, and when they got caught (if it were a big enough crime, like going to the movies or talking to the person they were dating on an unchaperoned sidewalk), they would have to go through an appeals process to stay in the school.  During the appeals process, the person being “shadowed” would have to follow the floor leader around their classes or to their rooms and they couldn’t talk to anyone else besides administration or floor leaders.

I remember “shadowing” several of those people during my junior and senior years in college, and feeling sorry for what they were going through, but also encountering a certain happiness that I was glad I would never go through that situation or be like those people, having lost many of their college friends because of one or two bad choices they made when they could have just followed God’s advice.

Then I graduated from school and moved to Atlanta to become a high school history teacher.  I really loved it, but working at a christian school I got paid enough to eat and sometimes pay the rent.  My real life had started, away from the rules and the people telling me what to do and towing the line.  I remember one beautiful September day walking on the school campus feeling like I could take on the world, having put myself in a great situation, loving the co-workers and students with whom I was constantly  surrounded.  And I thanked God I was not that guy who would sell his soul and his family out for a good time, or those people who messed their life plans up by some stupid choice to go off campus and visit Hooters or other people I knew who did bad things.  I towed the line.  I did the right things.

And then, just like that, I became that guy/those people and I would never be the same.

I seem to attract phone calls between the hours of 10 pm and 6 am, or maybe it’s my job, though many of the calls I receive are not tied to my job.  The first one I remember receiving was the summer of 2000.  In the summer of 1999, The crew I hung out with at the time and I made a habit of doing foolish things.  Among those foolish thing – pick up lines.  We would make up these wretched pick up lines and practice them before going out and using them as a means to meet new people.  The lines weren’t really to be used for “picking up” females, but as a tool to start conversations.  This was, at least, what we told ourselves.  Creativity was important, as was shock value.

My favorite:  We would pass our gospel tracts to ladies we would pass in the town where a few of us lived and say:  “Excuse me, would you be interested in hanging out with me in paradise someday?”

But there was one that we all had in our minds was amazing, that as I look back now, I think was really kind of stupid.  But it was the one no one would try.  One night we stayed out till late doing whatever it is that we did, and eventually I had to leave and go to bed.  I worked as a DJ for a radio station at the time and had to be up at 4:00 am, so I figured I should at least be asleep by 2 am.  The rest of our crew went to Denny’s for a late night snack.  While they were there, Roo (one of the crew) saw this “amazingly beautiful” girl and decided to walk over the the booth where this girl sat with three of her friends and try the line that had not been tested.

So he strutted over to the booth that held the girls in place, and sat next to the girl in question.  With his deep blue eyes (please understand, Roo had deep blue eyes), he smiled at her and said the words, “Those are nice shoes you’re wearing, wanna make out?”  A dramatic pause hung over both tables as the girls at the table digested what the strange young man had said, and then as the “amazingly beautiful” girl mulled over what her response would be.

“No.  But you guys can come over here and talk to us.”  She replied.  More awkward silence, and then everyone laughed.

Ironically after an evening of conversation and fun, the “amazingly beautiful” girl decided to ask another one of the guys in the crew out, and they went out.  (We’ll call him Joe)  Joe was much younger than Roo and “AB girl”, but evidently they had a fabulous time on their “date” and decided to go out again.  This relationship took off, but the problem was that they lived two very different lives.  Joe was a missionary kid who was currently enrolled in Bible college, and “AB girl” was none of those things and more.

To make a long story short, “AB girl” never became a Bible college student or a missionary, but Joe became the opposite of those things, eventually deciding to start living with “AB girl” and hanging out with a different crew of people all together.  I don’t judge him for that, but I do judge me for not knowing how to encourage him properly through the process.

One summer night  in the summer of 2000 while I slept deeply as I like to do, I received a call from Joe, crying his eyes out, and begging me to come get him.  I said, “Where are you?”  I asked in my normal voice at 3:30 am, which I’ve been told, sounds a lot like Katherine Hepburn talking over a vacuum.  “At her house,” he responded, sounding defeated and lost.  “Just come get me quick.”  I woke my eyes up, jumped out of bed, and drove the 10 minutes to his new/old house, where I picked him up on the curb that humid summer morning.

I never went back to bed.

Which one of these are turkeys at Fellowship Church?

Now that’s a good helping of turkey to start off your Thanksgiving!
And to the others I am thankful for their huge helping of teamwork at Fellowship!

Because I told you so or because I’m the boss or because I’m bigger than you no longer works as a viable option to telling other people why they should do things that you want them to do.  This is true not only in relationships, but also in the realm of spirituality.

“Why is that kind of music bad for me?”  “Because it is!”

“Why can’t I make this decision that I think is best for my family?”  “Because you would be wrong.”  “Why?”  “Because.”

“Why should I go to church?”  “Because God wants you to, stupid!”

“Why should I give my money to a christian organization?”  “Because the Bible says it somewhere.”

“Why is this the right way?”  “Because we’ve always done it this way.”

That used to be the way, but no longer.  Now that will get you blacklisted from your relationships and exiled from getting any respect, but hey, you keep trying to force your opinion on others based on the fact that you’re the loudest or you’re the boss and see where that gets you.

And when you’re no longer the boss, and everyone ignores you, please remember this post.

I did the unthinkable last night and took Carie to see “New Moon” for date night.

As you may or may not know, date night is a non-negotiable time set aside with my wife Carie that is anchored into our week so that, no matter how busy we get, nothing may remove date night out of the way without the express written consent of both of us and another date night scheduled to replace the first one.

As the evening was planned, I assumed based on something Carie had mentioned to me that she had bought the tickets for a theater about a half hour away.  Because of this, I plotted out too much time before the movie since we only live about 5 minutes from the theater to which we were actually driving.  After a bit of a debate on who was right and who was wrong, we decided to show up early for the movie and wait around the lobby area if we couldn’t get in the door.  But we found out there was no need to wait, for the place was in pandemonium when we arrived.

I took the above picture about 50 minutes before the movie started, and as you can see, the line already spread the full length of one of the theater’s long hallways twice over.  Which led me to process the enormous popularity of the Twilight series.  Jeff had some really interesting things to say on the topic, and while I don’t share his enthusiasm against America’s current most popular book/movie series, I certainly see some of the faulty philosophies within the group of novels/movies.

And I wonder how a group of books about vampires and werewolves and the girl who is torn between the two can captivate the hearts of a monstrous demographic.  Is it the idea of unconditional romantic love that is exhibited by Bella and Edward as they clearly have some sort of strong love bond between them?  Both the writing and the filming do a fine job of showing their respective audiences this.  As you might have guessed, about 85% of the audience that night were female, which leads me to believe that this kind of unconditionality is something sought after by a generation of females who have been mislead, manipulated, and manhandled by a generation of males who have neglected their responsibility to protect and care for the women in their life.

Or maybe it’s the intense “I’ll be there for you no matter what” attitude displayed by both main characters.  Typically women get the “I’ll be there for you, until something better comes along” attitude from their men, which because of the way the earth is created and evolving at the same time, means they will stop looking for protection and care from real guys.  Then they will seek after the same type of relationships from a) books and entertainment where they can dream about that real guy or b) a human being who is not male, yet can give them that dependability that all humans desire from their love relationships.

The deeper problem of course, lies in our understanding that no matter who we place our trust in, they will fail us.  But this is no excuse for men and women of all ages and generations to not be people of character as they move into relationships that literally must include two people of character to succeed.  In short, don’t get into a romantic relationship until you are ready, or as a wise man once said in Scripture…

“Do not arouse or awaken love until the time is right.”

Ever since I first remember reading Romans 14, I have had difficulty using language, entertainment, and real estate as the means to create a sub culture for Christendom.  Christian coffeehouses, Christian music, and words that only Christians understand get used up to create this distance between the one who has trusted Christ, and the billions of other people in the world around us.

In fact, I think building a subculture of Christian stuff is probably one of the worst ideas in human history, outside of Nero burning down his own city, of course.

If one uses the Bible as her guide, what she notices is that God had his chosen people, the Israelites, to be a light in a dark world.  To show the rest of the world that there is a better way, when that way comes from the God who created everything.  And Israel did okay for a while.  Even King David, the most famous of all of Israel’s leaders (with apologies to Moses), messed up a time or three, yet he was still known as a man after God’s own heart.  So it wasn’t necessarily the sin that tore up Israel’s relationship with God, but there was something deeper than just their outward failure to comply to God’s laws.

So God showed forgiveness and mercy in a huge way over hundreds of years of them turning their back on Him.  But then eventually He sends the Messiah, Jesus Christ, into the world.  Why then?  So by that time, Israel’s religion had come to a different place, away from what was really intended.  They had come to believe that they were different then everyone else just because they were Israelites.  As we know today, no group of people is more special than another group of people just because of their race, gender, or religion.  What makes anyone different from anyone else always comes from inside us and never from outside of us.

Then Jesus ultimately dies a cruel death on a tree, and pays a price that I was not willing to pay, eventually rising again to life and to the Father.  But He came into a world not only to die, but also to show us how to be a light in a very dark world.  And then what do we do in response to this fabulous act of kindness?

We create segregated churches and keep stale churches alive longer than they should.  We eat our potlucks in the church mess hall and go on our weekend retreats.  We buy our books from Christian bookstores and learn the necessary 8 syllable words that no one understands unless they’ve gone through 20 years of Christian school like I did.  We listen to our Christian music and reprimand anyone who dares to listen to “secular music” (or regular music as I prefer to call it, just like what I call music with Christ at the center).  In reality, we block ourselves in so we’re not tainted by the rest of the world.  Then we say to said world that thinks were crazy (not because we’re being light, mind you, but because we’re not), “Come, be a part of my thing.”

And for the most part, their response is, “Hell no.”

But what if we told them that to surrender to God, you don’t need to be like me or do my thing, but you just have to…well, surrender to God, and put your faith in the person of Jesus Christ who paved a way for them to do that?  And sometimes that means you should stop doing things that take you away from that goal, and sometimes that means you should probably start doing some things that move you towards that goal, like getting involved in Christian community.

That community might include me, or it might not, but it certainly is not about me – of that I am certain.

And what if we made our churches agents of push rather than leeches of pull, sucking the life out of everything that walks into its dark doors?

Wow…that sort of thing would take humility, sacrifice, and a change of mind and heart.