Darren Bell

George Lippert

Yesterday I introduced a conversation between my friends George and Darren.  I know them from two completely different contexts, but from my recent facebook interactions with them, I noticed that they were very similar in some ways and very different in others.  So I thought I would ask them to answer some questions for me via email, then replay the action here at martyholman.com.  The following is part 2 of that discussion.  You can find part 1 here.

George Lippert (GL):  Intellectually and spiritually stimulating, Darren.

If I understand you correctly (and pardon me if I am boiling down a stew to make a pill), is it a fair summary to say that your perspective is basically that everyone’s truth is true for them but not necessarily true for anyone else? All religions are equal (different paths up the same mountain)? In essence, is it the case that all truths are relative to he/she who believes them, based on the proposition that, to them, those truths order their world, give them clarity, and therefore serve the basic purpose of a belief system?

Darren Bell (DB):  Partly. But mostly I think I’m trying to say something deeper.

To take the mountain analogy and the famous humanist scenario of many people walking up the mountain from different sides all moving towards an ascendancy, the top of the mountain. A friend once told me that that story has the major flaw of all bad philosophy, that it fails to take itself into account and be self-reflective. The story requires a view from the top of the mountain to propose.

When I was thinking about your summary earlier today my first response was “No! I’m claiming there is no mountain at all!” Then I realized that is also claiming a knowledge that I don’t have.

To keep the mountain metaphor going in my view people are walking around in a forest with ~20 yards of visibility. In walking around we meet other people and talk to them about what they have seen walking around. And sometimes you meet people that are walking around that claim that we are all on a mountain, and that some people are going the correct way in the forest and others are going the incorrect way.

I hate the word truth. The sentence “Everyone’s truth is true for them” to me is the whole problem, and it is what most people do. They have experiences, they put those experiences together and then they blanket the world with them and operate like they are true for everyone. I think it is a very subtle difference but it is to me, an important difference in attitude about how you view your ‘own truth’ or ‘own worldview’. And that you DON’T let your personal truth become Truth.

Because Truth is unknowable.

To talk even briefly about the God thing. To know for a fact that God existed using the faculties we have you would have to be able to witness his infinity. Literally, to say God is infinite you have to see his infinity, you have to see or experience his omnipotence everywhere and through all time. Maybe there is a very strong force that operates in my cubicle at work, as far as I know it is omnipotent. But when I go to my co-workers cubicle he is no longer powerful there.

Now I understand that at some point for knowledge to grow you have to extrapolate knowledge from your circle of experiences and make assumptions about the way the rest of the world works. The problem with most of spirituality though is that the experiences people have are GLARINGLY DIFFERENT!! In science when a scientist measures the mass of an electron every other scientist measures the same mass. However when people follow their ‘internal moral compass’ everyone scatters like cats each chasing their own cubicle god and claiming it is God. “Well he is god in my cubicle so he must be God everywhere.” That is bad extrapolation. And the myriad of human experience tells us that is bad extrapolation because there is no consistency of experience between one person and the next.

I don’t have Truth. I have experiences and perspective, and those things can never be wrong, only my interpretations of their meaning can be wrong. Because of that I try to be very careful with my interpretations of there meaning and confine that interpretation into what I believe claims that can be rationally asserted and are also going to be true for the next person that has the same experiences as me. You know . . . more or less.

GL:  Thanks for going into it again, Darren. Obviously I disagree on some major points, but I won’t spend anymore time in this post hashing over it (unless you and Marty wish it). We could go on for volumes, I am sure. I do agree with you vigorously on the futility of seeking Truth through subjective personal cogitations and speculations. I suspect we humans no more contain Truth than lightning bugs contain Lightning (to paraphrase the immortal Twain).

MH:  Actually, I wish it. Would love to hear your answers to his, and maybe another round or two.

GL:  Well, honestly, my answer is just a couple more questions. I really don’t mean for this to be belligerent, so I apologize in advance if this sounds obtuse.  The claim that Truth is unknowable is, in itself, a Truth claim. What is the basis for this Truth claim? Using your previous comments, I’m led to the next few questions.

I appreciate that you use analogies. You describe us as people wandering aimlessly in a foggy wood. We are unable to know the full Truth about this wood because none of us can see the whole of it. I’ll call this the Holistic Quotient.
On the other hand, you compare Truth about spiritual matters (vague and disparate) to the Truth about the mass of an electron (measurable and uniform). I’ll call this the Disparity Quotient, and I think it is a very fair question, one that I consider myself at length.

The Holistic Quotient is one you already addressed by acknowledging that, eventually, one has to make logical assumptions based on the available evidence. Thus, you do not need to measure every electron on earth to determine a logical assumption of its mass. And yet you say that since we cannot experience the absolute totality of God’s alleged omnipotence, said omnipotence cannot be assumed. Why?

The Disparity Quotient is admittedly trickier, methinks. Still, how does disparity of beliefs about spiritual matters deny that there might be one absolute Truth? Many people might disagree about the contents of a mysterious box (think of the classic thought experiment of Schrodinger’s Cat), but that does not imply that there is not one constant truth regarding what actually IS in the box.

To claim that disparity of beliefs means there is no such thing as Truth seems to me like saying that in a world of second graders there would be no such thing as algebra. Mathematical Truths exist even if the second graders have no concept of them (although they themselves may deny it vehemently).

So. All that to say, how do you back up your Truth claim that there is no way of knowing Truth? I believe I know Truth (albeit in a limited form, revealed by God’s revelation through the Bible, and through NO act of wisdom, wit, or worth on my part). Your worldview denies mine. Therefore, I would be curious to know what your basis is for it. Why, in short, am I wrong?

MH:  Feel free to comment your thoughts and opinions.

This is Wendy.  In this picture Wendy is sliding down a bouncy water slide with about a hundred kids, college students, and parents.  Wendy is a huge part of Fellowship Church! She tells me each week how much she loves the community, the services, and especially, the kids.  Each week Wendy spends time preparing to teach toddlers about Jesus, and tells me that she loves it so much, she would do it every week if she could.  Every time I see Wendy, she has a smile on her face.  One of the most amazing things about Wendy is that she is 70 years old.

70 years old.  She’ll never even read this blog because she doesn’t get online.

I believe she is the eldest regular attender of our church, and this is her sliding down a water slide at our Party in the Park last week.  She doesn’t mind that there’s “no around around her age” or that “the music is a little too rocky”  She loves Jesus.  he changed her life.  And now, with a smile on her face, she wants to help Him change other people’s lives too.

And she is so important to our community!

I’m hunkered up in the AC-laden children’s ministry rooms at Fellowship while my wife and her sister are hitting the beach on this 90 + degree day.

What’s your favorite beach in the world?

Sometimes Bruno barks.  I’m not sure at what, but I hear it.  he barks.

Bruno’s our dog, and he’s a good one, but sometimes, out of nowhere, he just spastically starts to bark and howl.  Maybe it’s a butterfly, or maybe it’s a squirrel, but for whatever reason, makes loud noises that I wish came out when people were around.You see, Bruno never barks when people come to the door or when someone’s walking around our property, only at what I perceive as little, unimportant things.

I should teach him when to bark and when to sit quietly and to just be amazed at the little flying creatures that God created from a caterpillar crawling on a tree.  Barking at little unimportant things becomes annoying to others as they are trying to live out their lives.  Barking at little unimportant things makes Bruno a nuisance.  And barking at little unimportant things means he might one day ignore something more important because he’s so focused on that which is unimportant.

Hmmm.

I was in a funk last week.    I don’t mind sharing this with you now, but at the time, I really struggled, mostly with my scheduling and production.

You see despite the fact that I’m not a real big tradition guy, I tend to work best in an environment where I become a creature of habit.  Then I went to Haiti.  The trip was eye-opening, amazing, and when I think back on it, needed.  But for the week before, due to the loss of my wallet and all important information to my life, and normal preparations for a week long trip out of the country, I didn’t get much accomplished.  Then for two full weeks after, I don’t know how else to say it other than I found myself in this funk or cloud or island where there was a time machine and two guys called good and evil vying for my attention (sorry, that last one was a shout out to ‘Lost’ fans).

During those two weeks I got nothing accomplished (like the week before the trip), got kicked out of a basketball game (story coming later), and became addicted to an online video game with a few of my friends.  By the time Sunday, March 14th arrived.  I was so irritated at myself, I couldn’t even believe it – but still, I had not a clue how to lift the funk.

On Tuesday, the 16th, Steve and I attended a funeral in south central Massachusetts.  On the drive home, I received a call from a number I recognized, but couldn’t place it, so I didn’t answer.  After listening to the voicemail, I realized it was Ben Arment, my Dream Year coach.  We scheduled a phone appt. for that day, but I thought it was 2:00 pm, and he called at 1:00 pm.  He was right.  I was wrong.  Not shocking, I guess, considering my funk.

In humility and with a bit of disgust with myself, I called him back and basically apologized.  We chatted for a while and I guess he realized I was kind of out of it, and by the end of the convo, he says, “Well Marty, I don’t know really what to do here, the ball’s in your court.  There’s some things you have to do, and you know what they are…”  He let those words hang out there, and for the first time in about a month, I could see a bit through the clouds.  I don’t even know if he knew how impactful his words were as I sucked them in like icy air making its way through my lungs while playing football on a cold fall day.

“Yeah, I do know what I need to do.”

The last few weeks have been a different story.  I haven’t got kicked out of basketball games, or played online video games, or even sat at my desk and wondered what to do.  But I have spent tons more time with Carie, and quality time with friends and I’ve even been reminded why I love doing what I do and the vision for what we’re trying to do here at Fellowship is once again clear in my head.  This should not be shocking coming from me, but I think what made the funk go away and the clouds lift was the reminder that the people in my life matter, and that by focusing on people, as opposed to just tasks and simply getting stuff done, I’m helping to affect people’s lives. The life groups that we are trying to build here in central Massachusetts aren’t just simply programs of our church, but they are indeed our church.  The community building vision that I am trying to get off the ground (aka fellowship Worcester, The Splat Coffeehouse) is not just something for my ego, but they are essential to my vision of the church being more effective in the context of community and relationships than simply coming once a week to a building and feeding oneself.  So now I have to go, because I have things to get done and people to connect with, but…

I still despise that one ref.

When I was a boy growing up in the a bit bigger than small town America, I would do one of two things with my time:  I would explore or I would entertain myself.

Exploration would mean walking around and finding new areas of the corn fields, railroad tracks, or old broken down barns, and pretending that I was the “ruler” of those newly explored places.  Entertaining myself would mean watching TV, listening to music, or occasionally playing basketball or football when it wasn’t too cold.  Exploration would keep me on my toes, every step I would be wary of what was coming next.  Entertainment allowed me to watch someone else keep on their toes, at no expense to my own life (my dad typically paid the cable bill).

As I’ve grown older, I’ve noticed the same two choices, but the stakes are much higher.  I could explore new paths (not necessarily geographical) and new steps in my life that are natural and sometimes scary to travel into, or I could seek to constantly entertain myself, and watch others take the risks, explore the scary, and move into the unknown.  She question is…

Is 2010 going to be an entertainment year, or an exploration year?

How many places can you see Jesus?

Have you ever had those situations you didn’t know what to do by virtue of the fact that you’ve never had to deal with that before?  I tend to have a lot of these situations in my life and its unfortunate.  In the summer of 2001 at the front  of our church property one Monday laid a gray cat, clearly dead and clearly rolled over by a car.  Evidently the driver of the car emerged from his or her vehicle and lovingly placed the cat off the road onto our property.

I asked my boss at the time what we should do with the body of dead cat, and he told me to let it stay there until Sunday (6 days away) or until the owner of dead cat came to save  the lifeless feline from being eaten by the birds of Fellowship Church.
That week happened to be 1)the week of VBS and 2)the hottest week of the summer, so all the kids who happened upon our campus complained about our lack of air conditioning in the buildings and that nasty smell emanating from dead cat.

Saturday rolled around along with another successful week of kids craziness and once again I asked my boss what I should do, to which he replied that I should “get rid” of dead cat and he should not be there the next morning.  “How should I get rid of him?” I asked, not familiar with the politics of ‘getting rid’ of koffin kitties, having rarely spent any time with pets as a child.  “I don’t care, just make it gone,” was his response, clearly feeling the same way I felt about dead cat.

So I walked to the back of our church and grabbed a heavy duty construction trash bag.  Then I walked slowly toward dead cat as if somehow it would jump up and attack me.  Oh yeah, I forgot the shovel.  I had a shovel in my other hand.

Dead cat was nothing, if it wasn’t heavy.  I got the shovel deep underneath the cat, and heaved it above the ground.  Then I had that awkward bag shuffle we sometimes do when we have something to place in a trash bag, but we don’t have two hands left to open the trash bag wide enough.  Do you know the awkward bag shuffle?  It frustrates me.  I have the awkward bag shuffle often now as I place Bruno’s (the dog Carie and I are currently dog sitting) dung in a plastic bag when he goes on Neighbor Michael’s lawn.  Just kidding.  He hasn’t gone on Neighbor Michael’s lawn…yet.

So after about 10 minutes of trying to fit dead cat into a bag, I then walked over the the dumpster and threw dead cat away, not realizing the impact this would have on dead cat’s human mother.

As you probably could have guessed (though in some world inside of my head I did not), dead cat’s human mother eventually came to me, showed me a picture, and asked if I had seen her cat.  Immediately I knew what had happened to her cat, and I inferred to her that I knew.  In shock, she brushed my words off as if it probably wasn’t her cat I had done that too.  I half-heartedly and like a politician agreed, saying that the possibility existed it was someone else’s cat, and that I could not be certain, but inside I thought to myself, I’m sorry maam, I threw your cat away about a week and a half ago.  If I was raised with animal common sense I would not have, but I don’t have any of that.

If it ever happens again though, I’ll be sure to give the deceased animal a funeral.

Of my first 18 Christmases in this world, I only remember 3 gifts I ever received.  There were several years my parents gave me presents galore – lots of little toys or knick knacks in which I ripped open each one hoping the next one would be better than the last.  But the only gifts I remember were the years that there was only one gift “under the tree.”

Granted they were large gifts, but those years – the years of the 10-speed, the waterbed, and the gifts of cash my parents handed me with the realization they couldn’t figure out what a teenage boy wants anymore – were memorable.  Now I did buy several items with the cash gifts, but I don’t remember what they were, I only remember those 3 gifts.  For whatever reason we’ve tricked ourselves into believing that the more there is to open, the better.

This year I want to give gifts that would not be “one of the many”, but will be “one for the memory”?

Many of us are paid based on how much other people trust us..  This is the way the world works, and it shouldn’t surprise people or be up for debate.  In other words, I make my money by being a pastor.  When I became a pastor, I knew I would get paid, in a sense, not only to lead a church, but also to act a certain way to the people I was leading each week.  Every pastor understands this, including the ones that get caught with their proverbial (and sometimes literal) pants down.

Hollywood celebrities know this too.  That’s why they don’t whine when someone takes a picture of them getting out of the pool or taking their dog for a walk downtown to get a coffee at Starbucks.  Occasionally the paparazzi steps overboard and gets a little crazy, and nobody likes to see that, but for the most part there’s an understanding:  Public job = public eye = access to your life.

So then there’s Tiger, who thinks he deserves privacy now, a fact I don’t dispute, unless he means on something that has already gone public, like for instance, his life.  Listen, I could literally spend all day on YouTube watching commercials starring Tiger Woods telling me I should buy this car or this golf ball, or just turn on the Television for any amount of time before I see him again, and now he asks for privacy to the very people he basically gets a paycheck from?

And then I’m reminded of the inauthenticity of our culture again.  We like to be looked at as perfect, as a shining star, and as a poster boy for good role models in the universe.  Pastors, celebrities, athletes alike seek the approval, not only for our main job description, whether it’s preaching or acting or hitting a ball, but also for our character.  Because when our character is questioned, we are reminded that this is what actually helps us as “salespeople”.  In other words, what qualifies us to do what we do is not so much what we know, but how much we look like we can be trusted.  It is a matter, not of position, but of character.

Make no mistake my friends, the reason Tiger wants privacy is not because he doesn’t have privacy in the confines of his house.  There are kings in this world who I could get to faster than I could get to Tiger Woods right now.  But the reason he wants privacy is so we will forget the major character flaw that he has – that we all have – and once again his empire will be worth what it once was, thanks to his likeable smile…

and our horrible memories.