Comments on: Jesus and Beer http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/ Inspired by a true story Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:08:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: New Stories coming soon | Martyholman.com http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-12455 New Stories coming soon | Martyholman.com Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:06:33 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-12455 [...] or other people’s junk, but when he wrote about his adventures- Like the time he realized Jesus might be okay with beer, or the time a bee stung his [...] [...] or other people’s junk, but when he wrote about his adventures- Like the time he realized Jesus might be okay with beer, or the time a bee stung his [...]

]]> By: MP http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9301 MP Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:05:05 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9301 While I don't have an issue with consuming alchohol in moderate and responsible amounts, I do see the points about drunk driving, alchoholism and not giving someone a reason to fall, and other issues of intoxication noted above. People were in my home for a BBQ, 17 adults consumed 23 bottles of some form of beer or wine cooler over a 6 hour period(with a lot left over). The relational nature was a bunch nutty, happy people, our normal state, rather than the effects of alcohol. When Jesus was looking at our hearts during that time, I believe He noticed our consumtion of drink, food, and delicious desserts were all around friends enjoying each other's company rather trying to get a buzz going. And the Flying Dog porter(Dark stout)was yummy! Tasted nothing like nasty bread. While I don’t have an issue with consuming alchohol in moderate and responsible amounts, I do see the points about drunk driving, alchoholism and not giving someone a reason to fall, and other issues of intoxication noted above. People were in my home for a BBQ, 17 adults consumed 23 bottles of some form of
beer or wine cooler over a 6 hour period(with a lot left over). The relational nature was a bunch nutty, happy people, our normal state, rather than the effects of alcohol.
When Jesus was looking at our hearts during that time, I believe He noticed our consumtion of drink, food, and delicious desserts were all around friends enjoying each other’s company rather trying to get a buzz going. And the Flying Dog porter(Dark stout)was yummy! Tasted nothing like nasty bread.

]]> By: jeff c http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9288 jeff c Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:28:23 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9288 as a person who struggled greatly in this area before salvation at 25 and has backslid in this area post salvation too many times to count i just wanted to offer a resource i feel has a pretty solid answer hope it adds to the discussion ps great site marty ! Question: "What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine?" Answer: Scripture has much to say regarding the drinking of alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 29:6; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12). However, Scripture does not necessarily forbid a Christian from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. In fact, some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31). Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12). Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is usually best for a Christian to abstain entirely from drinking alcohol. source: gotquestions.org as a person who struggled greatly in this area before salvation at 25 and has backslid in this area post salvation too many times to count i just wanted to offer a resource i feel has a pretty solid answer

hope it adds to the discussion

ps great site marty !

Question: “What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine?”

Answer: Scripture has much to say regarding the drinking of alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 29:6; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12). However, Scripture does not necessarily forbid a Christian from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. In fact, some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…”

What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12).

Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is usually best for a Christian to abstain entirely from drinking alcohol.

source: gotquestions.org

]]> By: Marty Holman http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9286 Marty Holman Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:06:23 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9286 Now that was a discussion! thanks to everyone who shared from their hearts and minds. Anyone else? Now that was a discussion! thanks to everyone who shared from their hearts and minds. Anyone else?

]]> By: a modern levite http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9284 a modern levite Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:52:07 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9284 "Legalism is about placing judgment on others, it is about setting life standards for others…it is NOT about having standards upon which you have in your own life." I agree. However, your initial post regarding alcohol consumption seemed to proclaim a certain standard to others, not just yourself. "However…inner transformation is the ultimate behavior modification." Agreed. But behavior modification in and of itself is meaningless. It becomes religion. "The whole act of repentance is turning the opposite way from your previous behavior. " Absolutely. I know longer am a slave to the sins that previously owned me. Though I do say that in my former life and my present life I enjoy wine, because the consumption of such is not sin. The overconsumption, of course, is. "the issue here is that you never really know if others around you have personal convictions against it or not if you are drinking in public. " You may never know if what you wear, listen to, eat, or watch is going against someone's personal convictions either. We cannot always presume who around us will be at odds with what we do. We would be walking on eggshells. I do agree that it is best to use discretion and wisdom. I don't find much occasion for ordering alcohol when I go out unless I am at a restaurant with my husband, or with a group of friends who are out to enjoy beer with pizza, etc. It is good to be wise about these things, and know who you are with. Cigars are welcome...and awesome looking corn cob pipes. ;) “Legalism is about placing judgment on others, it is about setting life standards for others…it is NOT about having standards upon which you have in your own life.”

I agree. However, your initial post regarding alcohol consumption seemed to proclaim a certain standard to others, not just yourself.

“However…inner transformation is the ultimate behavior modification.”

Agreed. But behavior modification in and of itself is meaningless. It becomes religion.

“The whole act of repentance is turning the opposite way from your previous behavior. ”

Absolutely. I know longer am a slave to the sins that previously owned me. Though I do say that in my former life and my present life I enjoy wine, because the consumption of such is not sin. The overconsumption, of course, is.

“the issue here is that you never really know if others around you have personal convictions against it or not if you are drinking in public. ”

You may never know if what you wear, listen to, eat, or watch is going against someone’s personal convictions either. We cannot always presume who around us will be at odds with what we do. We would be walking on eggshells. I do agree that it is best to use discretion and wisdom. I don’t find much occasion for ordering alcohol when I go out unless I am at a restaurant with my husband, or with a group of friends who are out to enjoy beer with pizza, etc. It is good to be wise about these things, and know who you are with.

Cigars are welcome…and awesome looking corn cob pipes. ;)

]]> By: DML http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9283 DML Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:34:22 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9283 I know all about legalism. I grew up in it. Lived it and was part of it. I am delivered from it as well. So I did not need a lesson on legalism nor the Amish. Legalism is about placing judgment on others, it is about setting life standards for others...it is NOT about having standards upon which you have in your own life. Billy, I agree, it may be that where you live has some influence on what perspective people may have on whether it is a good or a bad idea for a Christian to drink in public. I know where I live... most non-believers would have issues with it. I have had a few drinks in the privacy of my own home...along with a a few great cigars...I have no issues with it in private settings such as your own home. As far as the Holier than thou (KJV referenced) issue..."Holier than thou" issues come up when that believer places themselves as a Judge to determine right and wrong for everyone else. I am not placing judgment on anyone else that drinks...I am saying is it not worth losing credibility to other believers or non-believers. Levite, your definition of Christianity as defined as "Inner Transformation" is appropriate. However...inner transformation is the ultimate behavior modification. Inner transformation is the result of becoming a "new man". Which is behavior modification. The whole act of repentance is turning the opposite way from your previous behavior. As Paul references all through his writings, the battle with the old man (the person you were before Christ) continues until we die. The new man is called to holiness and while sinless perfection can never be achieved here on earth we are to battle the old man and pursue Christ's Righteousness. You also state that you would not drink in front of someone who has a personal convictions about drinking. I agree that drinking is a personal conviction, however, the issue here is that you never really know if others around you have personal convictions against it or not if you are drinking in public. To cause offense for a drink of alcohol is an awfully steep price to pay. I agree with you....the privacy of your own home is the best place for your enjoyment of alcohol. Richard, No contentions here. I just know that if I am ever up with Billy...or Levite...I know whose house I can go to have a cold one. Would you guys mind if I brought my cigars? I know all about legalism. I grew up in it. Lived it and was part of it. I am delivered from it as well. So I did not need a lesson on legalism nor the Amish.

Legalism is about placing judgment on others, it is about setting life standards for others…it is NOT about having standards upon which you have in your own life.

Billy, I agree, it may be that where you live has some influence on what perspective people may have on whether it is a good or a bad idea for a Christian to drink in public. I know where I live… most non-believers would have issues with it. I have had a few drinks in the privacy of my own home…along with a a few great cigars…I have no issues with it in private settings such as your own home.

As far as the Holier than thou (KJV referenced) issue…”Holier than thou” issues come up when that believer places themselves as a Judge to determine right and wrong for everyone else. I am not placing judgment on anyone else that drinks…I am saying is it not worth losing credibility to other believers or non-believers.

Levite, your definition of Christianity as defined as “Inner Transformation” is appropriate. However…inner transformation is the ultimate behavior modification. Inner transformation is the result of becoming a “new man”. Which is behavior modification. The whole act of repentance is turning the opposite way from your previous behavior. As Paul references all through his writings, the battle with the old man (the person you were before Christ) continues until we die. The new man is called to holiness and while sinless perfection can never be achieved here on earth we are to battle the old man and pursue Christ’s Righteousness.

You also state that you would not drink in front of someone who has a personal convictions about drinking. I agree that drinking is a personal conviction, however, the issue here is that you never really know if others around you have personal convictions against it or not if you are drinking in public. To cause offense for a drink of alcohol is an awfully steep price to pay. I agree with you….the privacy of your own home is the best place for your enjoyment of alcohol.

Richard, No contentions here. I just know that if I am ever up with Billy…or Levite…I know whose house I can go to have a cold one. Would you guys mind if I brought my cigars?

]]> By: MB http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9282 MB Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:20:28 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9282 "beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy"- ben franklin. :) “beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy”- ben franklin. :)

]]> By: Dave Morrison http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9281 Dave Morrison Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:19:52 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9281 Marty, This is a great post! I was raised that alcohol was "evil" and "dangerous" by parents who were 3 pack a day somkers! (imagine how confusing that was) While they were Christ followers. They would drink from time to time but were so afraid of ruining our "whitness" that we couldn't throw the empty bottles/cans in the recycling bin to go out with the trash! (apparently we would ruin our "witness" with the garbage man or something!) Anyways, this is a message that needs to be presented, while for some alcohol IS a sin for others it's just another beverage and I respect those who abstain, all I ask is respect for the fact that I don't! Marty,

This is a great post! I was raised that alcohol was “evil” and “dangerous” by parents who were 3 pack a day somkers! (imagine how confusing that was) While they were Christ followers. They would drink from time to time but were so afraid of ruining our “whitness” that we couldn’t throw the empty bottles/cans in the recycling bin to go out with the trash! (apparently we would ruin our “witness” with the garbage man or something!) Anyways, this is a message that needs to be presented, while for some alcohol IS a sin for others it’s just another beverage and I respect those who abstain, all I ask is respect for the fact that I don’t!

]]> By: a modern levite http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9279 a modern levite Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:27:35 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9279 Richard, I think these sorts of things among Christians are fruitful to discuss. I don't think you caused malice divide. Not from me anyway. Take care. Richard,

I think these sorts of things among Christians are fruitful to discuss. I don’t think you caused malice divide. Not from me anyway.

Take care.

]]> By: Richard http://martyholman.com/2009/09/jesus-and-beer-one-of-these-things-tastes-like-nasty-bread/comment-page-1/#comment-9278 Richard Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:23:12 +0000 http://martyholman.com/?p=1730#comment-9278 My dear brothers and sisters. If I have caused "contention in the family" it has not been with any malice or desire. I have not nor do I judge those who choose with their liberty to consume alcohol as a beverage. I do believe it is unwise and it has the potential to take control of one's life. Thus the heartfelt warning of the Apostle Paul that we take care not to allow things in our life that have the power to take control of our lives. This Friday night we minister at the city mission in Akron. Most of the men who will be present for the "Three S's" (soap), (soup) and (salvation) :-)> could speak better than I to the dangers connected. None ever intended to become anything more than simply a "social drinker" but the stories are sad and they are real. My warnings though evidently taken by some as judgmental are from decades of experience and from a sincere heart. I do thank the writer of the previous post for the good reminder of truth that tells us though all things may be lawful under grace that not all things will tend to build our lives and witness before others and I thank you Marty for a good blog. When God's children can dialogue even on the "hot topics" it can only be helpful for our understanding. My dear brothers and sisters. If I have caused “contention in the family” it has not been with any malice or desire. I have not nor do I judge those who choose with their liberty to consume alcohol as a beverage. I do believe it is unwise and it has the potential to take control of one’s life. Thus the heartfelt warning of the Apostle Paul that we take care not to allow things in our life that have the power to take control of our lives.
This Friday night we minister at the city mission in Akron. Most of the men who will be present for the “Three S’s” (soap), (soup) and (salvation) :-) > could speak better than I to the dangers connected. None ever intended to become anything more than simply a “social drinker” but the stories are sad and they are real. My warnings though evidently taken by some as judgmental are from decades of experience and from a sincere heart. I do thank the writer of the previous post for the good reminder of truth that tells us though all things may be lawful under grace that not all things will tend to build our lives and witness before others and I thank you Marty for a good blog. When God’s children can dialogue even on the “hot topics” it can only be helpful for our understanding.

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