Hate makes waste
Darren Bell: Guest Blogger
Okay so yesterday I wrote this post about a comment someone had written about this post. I already had it in my mind to use this comment as the spearhead for conversation, and then many of you went out and wanted to see it. Not surprising.
The reason I was angry at this comment was not because they disagreed with my post. This person (Darren) rarely agrees with my posts, and I rarely ever edit or delete comments outside of swearing and mean-spiritedness. But I thought that this comment was aimed more at me personally then at the post I had written, though he attempts at patching it up by saying “Marty’s the man”. Apparently Darren believes that the purpose for my posts and preaching is to infiltrate the world with my philosophy (because no one else ever does that when they write), rather than trying to start up conversations.
So, let’s let the conversation begin.
“All your posts are subjective, but you pawn it off as these universal truths that are broadly applicable to anyone and everyone.
The things you experience and perspectives you collect in your own life, guess who they are valuable to? Only to you. Maybe to the people right around you, just so they can understand how someone they care about thinks. And MAYBE after thinking about them a long time, after considering the more fundamental forces underlying them, after seeing how other people have experienced the same things and how they dealt with them (and not just New England Christians and ‘Type-A’ personality people) then you can make a post about your own impressions and what you have found to be true about people.
I only know what is true about me, but I know their are other people like me out there. This post is very judgemental, and probabaly hypocritical towards you for things I also do. But whatever, your blog pisses me off because of the things you believe about people.
For a church that screams for being open minded and trying to reach out and making people feel welcome, what I see you doing most often is breaking people down and catoragizing them into groups that you can understand and putting labels all over them. Not the people that you interact with every week in small groups with, but the people ‘out there’ and the ones you are trying to reach. These over here are the “New Englenders” and they all act the same way and have the same mindset towards God; these over here are the “Web 2.0″ people, and with the right strategy we can reach out to them; these people are the “Holden Crew” and they are a little stuck up and I want to get them to like poor people more.
Maybe I’m speaking too broadly, but if you tried to put a label on me and had a specific strategy for how to ‘reach out’ to a person with my label I would never in a million years come to Fellowship. People usually do have slants and leanings, but the second you peg someone one way, they love to show you all the other ways you failed to characterize them, and that they can’t be put in a box. Again I’ll say it, Marty is the man. But I perceive many of the things you do not as trying to reach out, but trying to assimilate.
I do not hold to the truth that with just the right strategy, with just the next amount of knowledge about how a person thinks we can be effective through planning and strategising to work in a persons life effectively. Lonnie and you always said ‘we are what we are’ and people can take it or leave it. You already know that that is how I see relationships, as Ven Diagrams where people have a relationship in the areas that they share interests or are able to find common ground or a common world view. I see a person’s relationship with a church the same way. But more often then not I feel that your preaching and your blog are all about defending the mission of Fellowship instead of carrying it out. Trying to convince people that community is important rather then ebracing people that already believe community is important. Cause not all Christians want a church that focuses on community, some people get the most out of the systematic theology that a Bible Church offers. Or the dancing of a ‘sprit filled church’.
How many of the people at Fellowship believe community is important? How do you extend Gods kingdom by telling them how it is more important? Is community the ends or the means? If it is the means then don’t hold it up as the goal. Let it just be the soil.”
Related posts:
Short and sweet it sounds like Darren needs a hug.
Gentle comment to Darren: If Marty’s blog bothers you that much just stop reading it.
My first reaction is a general one, aimed at everybody reading this:
This is a mess. I don’t know if it’s helpful for me to jump into this with observations about what a mess it is. But maybe it will be. So here goes:
This is a mess because there isn’t one single issue.
On one hand, there are profound issues of epistemology and metaphysics and psychology and theology. But on the other hand it’s playing out in a very pragmatic, specific way.
This is a mess because on the one hand, there’s a specific issue that instigated it. But on the other hand, it seems like there’s a more profound, years-long disagreement about church strategy and a wide variety of decisions.
This is a mess because the internet is a dangerous place to work out disagreements that appear to be personal in nature.
My second reaction is to gently disagree with some of Darren’s points:
I would suggest that all of us are seeking after truths that apply to more than just ourselves. All of us are stuck in our puny little skins and with our puny little brains though. All of us are longing for the objective but unable to do more than say the subjective.
And yet, my life would be worsened and cheapened if people had held themselves to the standards being advocated here. People who have never met me have offered me deep wisdom. People who only-kind of know me have greatly impacted me.
The person who is speaking has a burden, yes, to be responsible with what he says. But the person who is listening is also obliged to discern. I’m afraid of the world you’re adovating because none of us would really learn much from each other because we’d be so afraid of mis-speaking or leading each other astray.
Maybe more later on church strategy and whatnot.
i’m gonna go ahead and just disagree with Darren. Not gently, why gently? Darren put his feelings out there, not gently, just said what he thought and didn’t beat around the bush, so why shouldn’t we? Because it will start a conversation that might get unpleasant?
Of course those of us who call Fellowship home are going to get defensive here, and i don’t want to simply act out on those feelings. So i’m just going to say how i feel and let it stand as a response. Fellowship is my home, and that’s a really big deal for me. It’s my home BECAUSE of the sense of community, the people, the acceptance, the joy, and the way that it helps me be closer to God, in a more real way than i’ve ever experienced. I grew up as a christian, i went to Pentecostal churches, i was assimilated, told what to say, i was “speaking in tongues” at age 9. When i went to college i had a hard time seeing the christians i’d always known as real people, like where did the rehearsed lines end and the real person begin? What did i and didn’t i ACTUALLY believe. When i found FC I immediately connected with Lonnie and Marty, especially Marty because i felt like our stories were similar and he felt like a big brother from the day i met him. Of course this is personal because i think Marty lets people in, he makes things personal. I felt such a strong sense of community, and i wanted to just be a part of it. I feel more at home at our church then i do in the house i grew up in sometimes….I feel more accepted for exactly who i am at our church then i do by any of my other groups of friends or family…..and i attribute all of that to Marty.
If FC wasn’t the kind of place that was seeking out people who believed in community and helping people i wouldn’t have found it, i wouldn’t still be there. I feel like i spent a lifetime going to churches like the one Darren describes Fellowship to be, and so in comparrison i have to defend it. I have to say that i don’t know where this is coming from, but it’s insulting to those of us that call it home and cherish it and work hard to make it as authentic as possible. I think of myself as an authentic person who thrives on community, and acceptance, i wouldn’t put so much of my heart into a place that didn’t promote the same principles, and i wouldn’t call Marty my brother if i thought he was a judgemental hypocrite.
O.K. A few more minutes, I just wanted to throw one more post out there. I think this is worth saying partially because it’s the second time in a couple weeks I’ve heard the question “Is community the means or the ends?” and I think that’s a great, important question.
My answer to that question is “Both.”
I think community gets a priviliged position in terms of the mission of the church. Scripture says that we will be known by our love for one another. It says that the two most important commandments are loving God and loving our neighbor. It says that the church is the bride and the body of Christ. Jesus was about creating community through out his life. It therefore seems to me that we ought to be, too.
I don’t have a need or desire to go protest in front of churches that focus on “systematic theology… Or the dancing of a ’sprit filled church’.” I think dancing, being spirit filled, and systematic theology are important. But I think a Christianity which emphasizes these things at the expense of community is out of balance. I think it’s quite irrelevant that there might be people who want these sorts of churches. It’s not what they need, and it’s not what we’re called to do.
Yes, there can be unhealthy communities. Yes, Fellowship Holden is populated by people like myself– people who are broken, people who are sinners. Yes, our communities are not perfect.
But this does not stop me for longing for perfection through Christ. And I’m unconvinced that this perfection will be reached outside of community.
Darren sent me the text a day before Martin posted it. Here was my reaction for those who care..
[quoting myself]
cool stuff man. I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine here in Germany, and came to the conclusion that your personal beliefs are just that, your own, and if you decide to present them, please don’t present them as truth, or even better than anyone else’s.
What would be loads better would be if I gave someone my point of view, and then either backed it up with scientific or similar proof, or if I backed it up with some experiences, and maybe a bit of my background to complete the picture for the listener, allowing him/her to make her own decision. Timothy Leary never said it better:
“think for yourself. question authority. think for yourself. question authority.”
of course now we’re breaching the subject of a church and the role of a pastor. In North America, it is commonplace to trust the pastor or priest as being so close to God that he has most of the answers. Maybe I’m not trusting, but I want to know for myself. And if someone I trust can satisfy both my quest for knowledge (of God in this case) AND provide enough evidence, or even counter-evidence, to allow me to make my own conclusions, then in the end what I believe is my own and not what some guy puts in my head. That’s kind of the reason I stopped going to church when I moved out here anyways. If I want a “relationship with God”, then it has to be mine, nothing else, and not just another social club.
I like the direct tone you take with Marty, but maybe his blog isn’t the place to do it. Maybe an email or phone call.
[end quote]
The amazing thing Mike is that you believe what you actually just said. That in some way, Darren and you are “thinking for yourselves” devoid of all influence, and in some way, the attenders of church in North America (and probably everywhere else) are not.
Jesus said many times “Go and tell” or “Go and preach” or “follow me and I will make you…” So I think he might disagree with much (though not all) of what you just wrote in your enabling email to Darren.
Part of the problem is that I believe there is some, shall we say for lack of a better term, Gnosticism that has possibly influenced your thinking. I say this because of your quote, “if someone I can trust can satisfy both my quest for knowledge (of God in this case)…” And this might be where the problem is.
One’s non-belief in influence is not just that in this case, but probably more like a non-belief in God. What I’m saying is that to say that in some way we should not be influenced by outside forces, whether by a single person or a group of people is seriously misguided.
Question authority? Absolutely.
Think for yourself? Couldn’t agree more.
But to say that the people in this church or in other churches aren’t doing that because they attend or because they listen to a pastor on Sundays, or that in sharing my opinions in a platform of this blog or what I believe Scripture says on Sunday mornings?
I think it’s clear where the judgmental spirit lies.
Agreed. I don’t, however, want to say that about the people that attend or watch services online, or even devout blog readers. All I wish to do is to caution people who have possible influence over others, that they realize that some people do not think for themselves, and maybe it’s just my personal vendetta, but I want always to ENcourage thought, not DIScourage it. I personally am very careful with people who I may have influence over, that I don’t try to give them all the answers, only my view, but in the end let them know that they need to figure it out for themselves. A little reality check I guess is all.
I just think it would be cool sometimes if the pastor stood up there, said his thing about God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost Goosebumps, and at the end concluded with, “… at least that’s the way I see it coming from a Baptist family in the Midwest who transplanted to Massachusetts and has spent the last 7 years striving to understand the things of God so that I may share a bit with people in this area and in this day and age. But I charge you (the congregation) to join me in my quest. As the late great Red Green so eloquently puts it: ‘We’re all in this together. Keep your stick on the ice.’”
at least that’s how I’d end a church service.
peace out
And thats where I agree with you Burns. But most of the time, I think thats how we do it. We didn’t have 96 people saved at easter because I don’t have a numbered way to count. I just said what I said, prayed, and that was it. Even if you’d look at the post that started all this, you’d see that I was just stating something personal I had found in my life. So while I appreciate your agreement, I take issue with the post big time because it accuses me of doing something I’ve tried very hard not to do, and still don’t think I actually do. What does everyone else think?
Martin,
You are a good man with a pure heart who earnestly seeks to follow the Father. This I know to be true. Those are the only facts of any real consequence. Darren, “Mr. Kramer says, hey, buddy” the intern, clearly has some other axe to grind. Don’t take it personally.
It’s clear Darren has an axe to grind. The post he chose to comment on had nothing to do with anything. Marty shared that HE is more creative in an orderly fashion. The fact that Darren then e-mailed his response to someone to get feed back tells me that it was a calculated attack. I find it funny that Darren would chose to attack in this way as he was a part of this church for sometime and worked closely with Marty. If you don’t understand Marty’s heart after being a part of his life for more that a week then you are deaf and blind. Marty bleeds his conviction.
Darren says “The things you experience and perspectives you collect in your own life, guess who they are valuable to? Only to you. Maybe to the people right around you, just so they can understand how someone they care about thinks. And MAYBE after thinking about them a long time, after considering the more fundamental forces underlying them, after seeing how other people have experienced the same things and how they dealt with them (and not just New England Christians and ‘Type-A’ personality people) then you can make a post about your own impressions and what you have found to be true about people.” Do you really think he hasn’t thought these things through? Would you me satisfied if he “showed his work” like he was doing long division? He has been serving at this area and specifically this church for 10 years. I think he has a grasp on the people and culture of this area. I can say that as someone who has lived my entire 28 year life here. perhaps you might say that I am jaded by spending my entire life here or that I haven’t experienced life elsewhere… ok but Marty is the opposite of that… he has spent only 1/3 of his life here, he has experiences outside of the New England Bubble.
Darren also says “All your posts are subjective, but you pawn it off as these universal truths that are broadly applicable to anyone and everyone.” ummm Darren EVERYONES views and opinions are subjective. Including yours… yet you have pawned them off here as universal truths.
Becareful when you attack someones beliefs or opinions. you may disagree but after all your beliefs and opinions are only as valid as the next guys.
I do agree with Burns. This would have been better played out in an e-mail or phone call.
darren only emailed me after he read my comment that marty should post it.
you must realize darren is a catalyst person, and though sometimes can be crass, he challenges all those who are willing to not take offense. but of course, he doesn’t have to do it always in that fashion, and doesn’t have to use Marty’s blog as his soapbox. But I shouldn’t use it either to bash anyone.
Can’t we just all love each other???
but on the other hand, I love the discussion that comes out of this. I just hope people don’t take offense or get personal. That’s what the internet is all about – impersonality… am I right?
My response to MB:
My reason for being gentle is because Scripture teaches that a soft answer turns away anger. Christ is our model and not others who elect to express themselves in a negative way.
Blessings to all.
Thanks Ed! Simply and wonderfully stated. You don’t know how this comment made my day!
Don’t confuse anger with confrontation however.
I wrote this because of a difference of perspective I have with Marty. It wasn’t written in hate or anger. In fact Marty and I talked about it and I feel that we had a very productive conversation about the issues involved in the conflict of our ideas.
Yes, I believe their is some anger floating around this forum. But please, seperate that from confrontation. Confrontation usually (for me) happens by accident, but once it’s there it can be managed into something productive.
As an aside I had several confrontational conversations this morning, and I know this isn’t always the way it works out, but this morning both of those conversations turned out great. Important views were exchanged, understandings were made and I think that the parties in both those conversations came out stronger as individuals and relationally with each other because of it.
Many are saying this is disrespectful or that I am a hypocrite. Yep, I am a hypocrite. And no, I didn’t mean it to be disrespectful. I think Mike is right in what he said, I sometimes try to be the wrench in the gears that when you take it out inspires you to check around the rest of the engine more carefully. I don’t mind being put off or tossed aside, if after that people even shortly rethink their premices.
Of course Marty’s heart bleeds with conviction for his church.
Also . . . I eat babies!!
The expletive Darren chose to describe his feelings about Marty’s blog speaks of anger.
James 1:20 ” . . . for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.” (NKJV)
Darren you can say (write) that it wasn’t written out of hate or anger but when you say it in a print medium you lose a sense of tone and emotion. So you are left to look for clues within the body of the text that show a persons emotion the reader is left to guess at the writers intent and emotion. So when you said things like “All your posts are subjective, but you pawn it off” “whatever, your blog pisses me off “, many of the attacks or “arguments” you raised you brought to a pointed personal level instead of a discussion of beliefs. That to any reader looks like an attack. Also just because you admit to being a hypocrite doesn’t excuse the behavior it just weakens your position and makes you look like an ass and someone that is pleased with themselves for causing controversy.
To Mike and Darren, The position of enlightened challenger of thought is tired. The people that say “I’m just here to challenge the system and make things better” are really just saying “I’m smarter than you.” People that only play “devils advocate” are spending far to much time on the side of the devil… If I were in Marty’s shoes those peoples opinions would be quickly filled away as resistance from the devil and I would most likely do what I was doing even harder and with more passion in the face of that criticism knowing that I was right. Instead try to be an encouragement. Pray for wisdom for Marty and his team. And DON’T pray in a leading way (that they would think like you or that God would reveal the deeper truth that you have). Marty is receptive to change and criticism. But first you must continually show loyalty and support. There is no room in the life of a leader for those that only seek to change their mind.
well, I am indeed smarter than you.
but seriously, (I am smarter) and that was good advice. to play “devil’s advocate” isn’t just trying to act like Keaneau Reeves, but it can be dangerous, and must be balanced with a healthy dose of, maybe, “God’s advocate”. This is a principle I strive for: balance – though it doesn’t always work out (of course). And I may be a bit selfish and narcissistic at times, which doesn’t help things.
Maybe the next few posts shouldn’t be commentaries on the issue, rather, perhaps how we’ve been changed though this or similar experiences.
I think I’d say I learned that though I should question authority and think for myself, I should also trust others that they too are thinking for themselves. Especially when I know the person personally. And also, when confrontation comes my way, I should accept it and let it challenge me, but I should also challenge back. That way, I see two possible sides of the issue, and hopefully my emotions stay out of it.
peace
Smarter and wiser are 2 different things. I will take wiser you can have smarter.
[...] week we had a fascinating discussion that led to a few rabbit trails and intense debating via the comment section of Martyholman.com. [...]
To Ed:
Thanks. I know. I was being pretty reactive. Where Family and Friends are concerned i tend to let my super protective/defensive side come out. Injustice too. I consider Darren a friend, we’ve had some good times together, and Burns is my buddy too..I think that’s why i reacted so quickly and strongly. In the end, i think the most important thing here is just to remember that it’s fine to disagree and to love each other, but also i think there’ something to be said for standing up for what you believe in. ya know?
love,
MB